Jabeer Talks to Isaac

So first of all, can I get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about yourself? So I'm Jabir Butt I'm chief executive of the Race Equality Foundation, we're a national charity whose mission is to um, And systemic racism where you try to do that in in three ways by looking at evidence on discrimination and disadvantage, trying to then develop interventions that help us overcome that discrimination and disadvantage, and then finally disseminate uh the lessons that we've learned both from the research but also from the development of this and implementation of those interventions. In terms of myself, um, my background is from applied social research, um, that's the way my journey began. I, I. Did a lot of work around racism and its impact on on minority communities, but also around the infrastructure that we might need to put in place to, to address some of those inequalities

So one of my earliest projects was a project that looked at how we recorded ethnicity. In, in health uh health and care settings. And it, it formed the basis of the NHS eventually in 1997 deciding to start recording ethnicity as part of its minimum data set, so I've tried to do that sort of work as well

So I'm wondering about your experiences of involving or working alongside people in communities in co-production. So what's your experience been of co-production? Uh, can I have give you a slightly long-winded answer, Isaac? I think the starting point when I got into doing applied social research was that At that time, when the experience of minority communities, particularly black communities, but I would say across the all minority communities, at that time when research was being done with those communities, it was often being done to those communities. And as importantly, it was often trying to understand their behaviours and how that explained the inequality that they experience

So for example, The evidence on on disproportionate numbers of black young men in the prison system led to a whole set of studies that try to understand whether the single parenting is being brought up in a single parent household was the cause of it or or other aspects of, of uh uh parenting such as the discipline methods and so on. And it very much seemed to be that if there was an inequality, it was the problem was. Caused by the communities rather than the systems around them and certainly not by by by racism

So when I got into it and myself amongst many others, we started to try and think about how do we change this narrative? How do we get the focus to be on racism rather than being on, on communities and what communities do or don't do. So much of the early work uh actually didn't do very much work with with individuals at all. It's ended up focusing on systems and structures and, and so on

But it became quite obvious after a while that actually that approach wasn't satisfactory. Uh, it didn't really give you a full insight on firstly how people were experiencing racism. But as importantly, what would make a difference? What would change that, that uh that uh experience of of racism, how could we put together interventions or support that would help people

People um flourish or thrive and so on. So, um, I think towards the end of the 1990s. I started doing more work with with individuals and families and communities as well to try and understand their experiences and then try and place those experiences

But to be honest, at that time, much of our ideas of involvement were still very much in the old traditional way, and you were the subject, I was the researcher, and, and so on. And that was most clearly demonstrated in, in what we thought, or I thought was a groundbreaking piece of work where we spoke to about 38, uh, black, Asian and minority ethnic young disabled people. About their experience of independence and independent living

And it was a really good piece. We got a wide range of young people speaking to us. Uh, physical disabilities, learning disabilities, um, or range of ages and so on

But in presenting it somebody said ask me a question about. Relationships. What, what, what, what had we discovered about? Uh, particularly teenagers and relationships, and I thought, oh, actually

There's virtually nothing in the report about relationships, particularly intimate relationships or or tho those sorts of peer relationships. And I wondered why that was and I had to, I have to acknowledge actually that was my fault, the way I'd constructed the, the research rather than because those young people didn't want to speak about it. It was something I had

So again it then challenged our whole ideas about how do we actually set up projects, how do we actually construct them. To actually take, take it forward. Now we've tried to do better, um, but I, I have to be honest, uh, each time we, we've tried, there, there has still been challenges around it and particular challenges

How do we actually acknowledge the time, effort, and energy people put into participating in our, in our work? We've got, we've got very good at making sure every get, everybody gets paid. However, it's also clear not everybody gets paid as much as I do or not everybody gets paid as much as the staff do. And I think that inevitably creates a, uh, an imbalance in in involvement

It inevitably means that uh people are still having to juggle whether they participate with us or don't participate with us because of the priorities that they face. And to be honest, I, I don't think we're still resolved that. I don't think we've, we've managed to

To do that, my defensive response sometimes is that, well, that's what the fun is. are willing to pay for and that that's, but in some senses it's perhaps also an indication that we've not fought hard enough. Perhaps it's the indication that we've not quite understood

Um, the importance of, uh, rebalancing that relationship and, and doing something something about it. And can I ask you like, how does, um, experiences of racism show up in, in the work that you do? Does it show up to, uh, you know, people still have experiences of racism in, in the work that you do? So, you know, um. The regularity with which people will talk to us about about racism is is seems to be stand out in comparison to universities and others doing that work

Yeah, I, you know. We've always argued against essentialism against suggesting that only Asians can interview Asians or early Caribbeans can interview Caribbeans or or whatever permutation we want to come to. However, we also always been clear

That if you don't have minority ethnic people in doing the research, leading the research and so on, you actually end up with a different, different uh product to the one that you, you want to achieve. So we think it is a, is of significance. And we've found in almost all circumstances that we've been able to get people to talk about their experience of, of racism

In some senses, particularly with, uh, people, uh, young people with learning disability, it's often been a discussion about being treated differently rather than the use of the word racism. But that is often a product of the fact that uh a lot of those young people have been brought up and have been educated in specialist schools and those specialist schools rarely if ever. Talk about this thing called racism

I'm not sure they can talk about being treated differently either, but it's rarely a word that's that's used and therefore when you come along and say, Have you, you know, it, it, but people are quite clear about being treated differently, being treated differently, uh, to their able-bodied or, or non-learning disabled, uh, counterparts, but also being treated differently to the white, uh, counterparts with a learning disability as well. So, so that's often there. I think, but quite often that uh discussion tends to be about the individual experience

This happened to me, this incident I was called this name. I was pushed here. I was

Denied entry here and so on. Well, there's less discussion of, although it does appear sometimes, what there's less discussion about is whether this is a, a general experience of, of your community or of the people that you live with. Uh, and I think sometimes there's a struggle to extrapolate your individual experience to whether or not this is a, this is a wider, wider experience and

That's something I think perhaps reflects also the wider malaise in Britain where. Um, unless somebody's called you a name, it's almost impossible to, to say whether that that uh is racism that's led to your poorer experiences. A lot of people have spoken about, um, microaggressions or the sense of being treated differently and it being quite hard to say that's racism

So I'm wondering about sort of co-production and involvement. So like, what do you think needs to change? Like, what can we change? What needs to change to make co-production and collaboration more inclusive of global majority, racialized communities? I, I wish I knew the answer to, to that, Isaac. I, I suspect there are lots of little things that we should do better or we should do differently, but whether or not that gets us to a point where

Where everybody feels that they're able to engage and be involved and I, I'm not sure and I think it's going to be a matter of of still trying it. The first and starting point is that it's, it's shocking to me to even to this day how often if somebody hasn't started off by thinking about who is it that we're going to have in the room, that we end up in a room with almost white people, even when we're dealing with issues around discrimination and disadvantage, it, it's, it's so often the case that you will turn up and. Uh, discover that all the disabled people are white or all the people with a learning disability are white or

Or all the women are white and so on, and you, and it's because the starting point hasn't been how are we going to make sure that actually we have a diverse population uh attending here. And sometimes it's just the assumption that because we're dealing with discrimination, we will necessarily have people come forward and, and that that's not the case. So we need to start there

The second thing is about how we actually make people feel comfortable that if they do come, they're going to be treated with respect and, and with care. I'm not sure we always do that, you know, it was taken by your presentation at the commissioner's conference about. Uh, how, um, the assumption seems to be that just because you've arrived, that's a big achievement and so on, but, but it's not, you know, that's just the starting point

And I still think that we don't do things often well enough to ensure people feel comfortable, people feel that they can talk, people feel that they're going to be appreciated if they share, protected if they share challenging information and so on. And often people think that they've done, done the right thing by having I don't know, um. diverse food or or or having it in a place where people feel comfortable rather than um the usual venues and so on

But that that's just a minor part of actually making people feel welcome and making people feel appreciated. The third thing I think is that, you know, Gus John me many years ago, um, at a conference on for the British Sociological Association, did a presentation and said that when, when black people ask him, should they be involved in research, he says that they should, their answer should be F off. Because the, the reality was that, um, that research, and I think it's also true about uh generally around involvement is, is exploitative rather than, uh, reciprocal or rather than productive for the people who are being involved

So I think the third thing we have to do is we have to show people how their participation has then made a difference. So the simplest thing of feeding back to people that, you know, you said this, this is what we did, doesn't happen very often. And if it does happen, it's so far down the road that sometimes people have even forgotten that they were involved in in something

So we, we need to create that sort of. Feedback loop that that that actually works. And then I think the 4th thing is that we've got to start demonstrating that the involvement actually needs to change

Um, often the issues being addressed are really thorny. So for example, I can't remember how many years now we've all been working around. Trying to improve the experience of black men in the mental health system

And it's just shocking to me that to this day, we still have the same things coming up. More likely to be on a, on a drugs regime rather than a walking therapy. More likely to come through the criminal justice system rather than, uh, through primary care

Um, less likely to have seen a voluntary organisations in the 12 months before, before being sectioned and so on. These are all patterns that were. Identified 30 years ago and we're still doing the same so you know

Now saying to somebody, please be involved with this work, they would have every right to say, well. What difference is it going to make? How is it going to change and I think. That points to something else is that we actually perhaps don't do and you know the raceality Foundation is, is as culpable as anyone

We don't do. Um, and we don't argue strongly enough for the, the changes that we know need need to happen. So for example, we've now debated for at least 10 years the use of, of legal processes to, to bring about change around mental health, and so far we've shied away from that, but

I, I can't help but think we've exhausted every other route and really the only option now left is, is, is judicial review and and because that's the only thing that's going to get people to take action. Can I ask you like what per what impact does this have on you personally knowing, seeing these challenges around involvement. I have to be honest, uh, Isaac, uh, when, when we've had people involved, it's, it's been perhaps the most fruitful part of, of the work, and it's the thing that often keeps you going because even when people tell you about dreadful experiences, the fact that they feel confident enough, they feel safe enough to, to be able to share those experiences with you

Is, is, is hopefully a sign that you've done something right, that you've done something that that's made them feel they're able to participate. So there's always a sense even after those occasions that you think to yourself. You know, at least we've We, we, we've been able to get people to open up and so on

However, I, I have to be honest, uh, um, uh, I've become increasingly angrier and angrier and, and. Um, I say oh Jabir's got his angry face on again in my presentation, but it's. It's just, you know, after so many years when you're repeating the same evidence and saying these are the things that need to be done to bring about change and people then still go away

And don't change, you, you, you inevitably get angry, so that commissioner's confidence. Um, I went up to the person who presented from skills for care and pointed out to her that while she said at length that uh the the. The new strategy that they were developing for the social care workforce was data driven, that she'd missed a huge part of the data, which is that in many parts of the country, the biggest part of the social care workforce is black Asian and minority ethnic

They're the ones who experience the greatest disadvantage, or pay rates more likely to be on, on zero hour contracts, more likely to miss out on things like holiday pay and so on. And yet you've now presented this huge endeavour you're going to take forward. uh, and, and you've not even mentioned them once, um, and most importantly

We've created a situation where comparatively poor people are now looking after even poorer people and we, we don't see. We don't seem to want to do, do anything about it, and her response was, oh, you know, in 20 minutes I, there's only so much to me how, how is that an answer? How is that a response? So you're never to be, you know. Well, I never did get angry about it and um

I'm rude to people as a result, which obviously isn't isn't isn't a good thing, but. Uh. Can I ask you, like, what role do you see organisations that aren't, uh, centred around being anti-racist or, um, doing the kind of work? Like, so I'm wondering, like, what do you think about the role of your white peers or organisations that extensively white doing and understanding this work, um, play within being more inclusive? We've certainly helped some organisations move the dial in, in, in, in what they do and how they do it and um

Um, so for example, with 11 organisation, uh, they were so obsessed in getting things wrong that she then didn't do anything at all. And we point, you know, we were able to make them understand that they often there were other areas that they, they were willing to take risks in. Even though they didn't necessarily know what was the best thing to do, yet for some reason in terms of race, they didn't want to take any risk for fear that

They'd be labelled and, and I think that 2 years down the road, they've become more confident about being willing to say we're going to try this. It may not work, but at least we're going to try it, and so on. So I think, I think there is, there is a lot of that

I do think And sorry again, this is a long rambling response. I do think there was a point after the murder of George Floyd where lots of organisations did do a bit of self-reflection, lots of organisations that at least put in some time, energy and effort into thinking about how and whether they were addressing issues to do with racial inequality well. So inevitably did it superficially, I remember getting one email from a leading organisation saying uh

Is it possible for you to come along and do an hour slot at our, at our staff meeting on on racism? How on earth is that meant to meant to be, uh, uh, an attempt to address this issue? That in itself is a demonstration that you're not, you're not really, you've not really thought. But there was a, as I say, with the murder of George Floyd and the reaction to it, there was a point. Where people were seriously thinking about about it

And some of that has continued, um. The National Lottery, for example, has continued its funding, has done some things that are different from. But for the most part, um, I think people have seen 2010 and the introduction of the and the the response of the Conservative government as being uh uh

Not necessarily a green light, but certainly an opportunity to perhaps not talk about race anymore or to talk about it in under the umbrella of, of diversity, which when you, when you try to unpick it with them, it's not clear what they mean by it, uh, uh, at all, you know, and for some organisations, diversity means geographical diversity, um. For others it's, it's an issue around social class rather than about uh about race and racism and some. And while as I say, George Floyd's murder brought about some change, I do feel we we've gone back to that that thing of

You know, um, we're not really going to talk about it unless we're pushed, um. And I'm not sure anybody sees the prospect of an incoming Labour government as as leading to a huge amount of change in in in that either. What is different is that the pictures are all different

So, Any new report that appears from Majority of these organisations now will have a more diverse. Set of pictures in them, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that actually they're doing anything different um. It it's very superficial

I'm not sure I've answered your question. I think you did, and I have a follow up which is, so thinking about like people with lived experiences of racism or living experience of racism and. The idea that, you know, we have a government that said there's no such thing as structural racism

Like, ah, what, what's your, um, like, say, what's your experience of kind of those sorts of attacks on people's lived experiences and the denial that it exists in the first instance? It, it, it's deeply depressing. It's deeply depressing. Um

But it, it's part of a wider malaise. I like, I don't know if you recall the murder of, of those two young black women, um, uh, Biba, Henry and. God, um, I've forgotten Liber's, uh, sister's name

apologies for that, but there was a uh An an inquiry after that led by um the inspectorate to understand what had happened and whether or not uh racism played a part in the police's response both to the initial search but also to the subsequent. Uh, treatment of, of the, of, of the young women's bodies and so on. And the conclusion was that it didn't

There was no they they concluded there wasn't racism. There were poor experiences, but there wasn't racism. Now that again goes to the heart of what I've said before that um people assume that

Unless a certain word has been used or or uh something obviously discriminatory has happened that racism doesn't exist. But if we understand structural racism, it's about the patterns of behaviour rather than. So if one particular group are regularly experiencing comparatively poorer experiences than others

Then that's an indication, then there must be an explanation that isn't just that this is random. But that this is actually part of a a pattern and and uh the evidence is quite clear that the police's treatment of black, Asian and minority ethnic people, particularly women, is comparatively poorer than than everyone else. And the only explanation can be uh can be racist and there's, there is no other, no other explanation

So when the government turns around and says there isn't any, you, you then see that this is part of a pattern. The worrying thing is that it's also uh politically driven. um you will you will see the announcement that Jeremy Hunt made in

In December for an extra 7 million pounds worth of funding to address anti-Semitism. Now that's welcome and and there should be money being spent on addressing anti Semitism because it is a scourge. But how is it the case that 7 million pounds was found to address anti-Semitism? Yet we don't seem to want to fund any other form of attempts to address racism

How, how can that be? And it creates that thing where we end up hitting communities against each other. Yeah, you know, the basis of that experience is, is the same. It's, it's racially motivated prejudice that's behind it

And I'm wondering about if er so a lot of people have said that there needs to be uncomfortable conversations or we need to do things differently. And I'm wondering how, like, do we get into those uncomfortable conversations? How do we Is it the responsibility of racialized communities to do that? Like, I'm, I'm here, you know, I've heard so much or we need to have uncomfortable conversations. But what are those conversations about? What is the approach to maybe addressing some of these challenges you've spoken about? So one of the things we've always argued is that actually racism itself makes some things appear to be uncomfortable

And it, it creates that frame in which we operate on. So when we were doing some work with the Early Intervention Foundation. We spent a little bit of time um with them about why they felt uncomfortable um around using certain terms because they weren't clear whether they should be saying ethnic minority, global majority, black, Asian and minority ethnic or bay

But what we did was we started off that discussion and we were being co-facilitated by one of my colleagues by by her asking uh all the participants. Would you describe me as a woman? And uh sorry, yeah. um OK

Would you describe describe me as a girl? Oh, no, no, no. You're, you're a woman. You're not a girl

So am I allowed to have a girls' night out? Oh, actually, that's something different. Uh, it's OK to use that phrase. There and she then went on and explored various other other phrases to describe women and the conclusion of that was actually

Something that we think is obvious and easily describable is also complicated. Yeah, we don't see that as being complicated. Yeah, when we talk, start talking about

The words and phrases we use to talk about black, Asian, and ethnic people, we see that as being complicated. So, you know, it's impacted, and you can replicate it in other things, whether it's disability, whether it's age, you know, I, I remember when I was younger if Asian man got to 60, I thought. This man's old, but also, so, my God, he's, he's made it to 60

Now, you know, 30 years later, somebody gets to 60 and they die, everybody thinks oh god, what happened? How do that, so you know, even things like age are complicated and and and so on. So I think we, we do have ways of having those conversations that can be done and done effectively. But we need to recognise that actually because of racism itself, people see these conversations as being more difficult than than or more complicated than than other things when actually uh it's racism that that that that's driving it

Beyond that, it's quite clear that um if you're not committed to to delivering these changes, it's there's no there's no conversation that you can have that's going to bring about change. Um, we, we've recently had a conversation with one leading organisation. Who wanted us to come in and and do some training, we said we we don't do that sort of training, but what we do do is run action learning sets

They said, oh, that's interesting. You know, would you put in a proposal? And we said, Well, we'll only put in a proposal if you tell us, uh, what resources you've got for doing this, because there's no point in us saying we're going to do this work and it's costing £10,000 and then you turn around and say to us, we've got 1000 pounds. And we went round and round in circles with them, or, you know, we'll, we'll find the resources and we kept saying no, uh, unless you've found the resources, there's no point in us putting in the words

To, to, to do that uh proposal because it takes time, energy and effort on our part to, to do the proposal. In the end we did, they said, you know, yes, we have found money. We put in a proposal and then they turned to us and said, oh no, we're not gonna go with you, we're gonna go with someone else

Oh I know. You were only talking to us. You only found the resources because we told you

But actually, you're now going with someone else. How has that come about? You never told us that there was anyone else. You never told us this was a competitive process

Mhm. And you then can't help but wonder whether people were genuinely committed with in terms of taking this forward, did they really want. Wanted to happen or did what they wanted was that the Race Equality Foundation have

Have put in a bid, so we've ticked that box and I, as I say, I think these difficult conversations if people aren't committed. They're not, they're not gonna get anywhere um. They may end up even being Potentially damaging because um People will, will become aggrieved rather than participate genuinely in them

Um, what are your hopes for the future of Doing more collaboration or a more um I suppose accessible collaboration world or co-production world. I think um Funders have become better at understanding the value of collaboration, but also that it comes at a cost and that that needs to be made. Funders have even become better at challenging those organisations that don't want to do collaboration or or want to do it in the

In the us and them model that that was there as well. So I think there, there is hope that that's going to lead to a change. Uh, I've been particularly surprised by the National Institute for Health Research's programmes because I think they've they've perhaps

Gone and taken a lead on on these things, although recently their their new chief executive seems to be stepping back from from some of those those things. But I would hope that that the fact that that's where the money is going would lead to more people taking on seriously. Some of the challenges around collaboration and co-production and and involvement and so on

Um, and if there are lessons to be learned from elsewhere, from, from things like the Swan initiative which. Try to drive forward the representation and involvement of women in in higher education, where the money goes, uh organisations follow and so hopefully that that's going to. Going to be key in what the lottery is doing and NIHR are doing and so on

I think it is, is helpful. Beyond that, I think Um, we've become a little better, um, you know, our trustees have changed our. Uh, who we employ has changed

Hopefully the way we work has changed as well. Has it changed as much as it should have done, I'm not sure, but hopefully that that's the case. Certainly some of our sister organisation in the race ecology sector have changed as well and are are are doing better

Um, and most clearly the way it's been demonstrated is a, uh, is an intersectional approach to both who's involved, but also in, in the way we present issues around racial inequality. I think are signs that that things are things are changing. Um, Well I think we're still struggling with is to do that final thing I mentioned earlier on, which is to actually demonstrate that people's involvement has led to to significant change in people's experiences and I'm not sure we've got there yet

And part of that is that I don't think. Any of us or or the right, or all of us are in a position to push, pull the levers for change that need to be pulled and to to bring about, bring about that change. So I think that's where the the real effort needs to be is that we need to find better ways of of demonstrating that people's involvement has

Has resulted in things actually being different. Absolutely. I was wondering if you had any questions for me? I think the I, I don't want to get into a situation where we say co-production only looks like this

But I, I do wonder whether there is something, you know, I, I've been ruminating on, on what some of the things that you said, but I've been. I'm not sure what you said is necessarily represented in in in some of the things that the leading lights have written or whether it's TAP or whether it's the Social Care Institute for Excellence. I'm not sure it's captured there

And I do wonder whether there's going to be opportunities or whether you're intending to use this as an opportunity to. Better describe what what uh co-production looks like when it when it genuinely involves black Asian and minority of people. Hope so

I, I think. There's, there's a direct conflict in, in this work where Everybody I would say that they believe in co-production like everybody that I've interviewed would say they believe in being anti-racist or non-discriminatory. But beneath that is how will then people showing up, how is co-production experienced and for me

Um, the way that we might be doing co-production. You cannot really be damaging and harmful for racialized people, um, asking us to share our experiences of trauma, not thinking about the impact, never seeing, as you have shared in, um, your story, never seeing that through our sharing, there is a tangible change or there is some sort of change. Um, and when I bring these topics and ideas and views to spaces that are probably predominantly white, Of course you get the eye rolling, you get the defensiveness

Um, I think. Maybe there's an opportunity to Have more people saying these sorts of things through these stories that organisations go actually we can do this if we believe in the principles of co-production. That In itself means that we are going to want to work alongside and with people from global majority, racialized communities and

We have to take a very different approach, and we have to be very honest about some of the harms, some of the missed opportunities that have happened. It is hard, and I think there are some great people banging that drum. Is it enough? I'm not sure

Will we stop banging that drum? No. Um, will I have my angry face as well? Yes. Um, but all of these small things

Um, I think can lead to a real big change, um, hence why we continue, I continue to do this work. Um, and having more voices add to that kind of. Can be very lonely being the only person in the meeting we're saying, how comes I know so many diverse people, but, and I'm the only person that has brown skin in that space

So I think that was a bit of a ramble on my part. um, I haven't got any more questions for you. Do you have any for me? um

No, obviously, it'd be good to, good to see the next stage or, or, or whatever you're able to share in the next stage, that that'd be really valuable. Absolutely. So what happens next is I will send you a thank you email, um, and we have a small, uh, Honorarium, um, that can get to your organisation, as yourself, um, and an outline of what, what next

So we plan to have two workshops where we invite people to come and, um, help us make sense of some of the stories. Then we are gonna have a conversation of change event where we're gonna invite lots of people like the very people we've talked about to come and help us explore what we need to do as a result of hearing these stories. We, um, and I, I would say the co-production collective have Initially wanted your stories and then gone, Well, actually, people have said they want more, so they're gonna have an insight and learning report, which, um, this will feed into

And we see everyone that's shared the story being part of that whole journey. So I'll keep you informed. So, what to expect from you next is an email and then some suggested dates, and then there'll be a bit of a gap around us pulling together a report

Um, but I'll keep you informed as we go along. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Isaac

Hopefully it's, um, it's very much so. Um, and everybody's contribution is always useful. Um, so thank you, and I look forward to seeing you around

OK. Take care. Bye-bye

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