Report transcript in: Jabeer Talks to Isaac

Please Report the Errrors?

So first of all,

can I get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about yourself?

So I'm Jabir Butt I'm chief executive of the Race Equality Foundation,

we're a national charity whose mission is to um,

And systemic racism

where you try to do that in in three

ways by looking at evidence on discrimination and disadvantage,

trying to then develop interventions that help us overcome

that discrimination and disadvantage,

and then finally disseminate

uh the lessons that we've learned both from the research but also from

the development of this and implementation of those interventions.

In terms of myself,

um,

my background is from applied social research,

um,

that's the way my journey began.

Did a lot of work around

racism and its impact on on minority communities,

but also around

the infrastructure that

we might need to put in place to,

to address some of those inequalities.

So one of my earliest projects was a

project that looked at how we recorded ethnicity.

In,

in health uh health and care settings.

And it,

it formed the basis of

the NHS eventually in 1997 deciding to

start recording ethnicity as part of its minimum data set,

I've tried to do that sort of work as well.

So I'm wondering about your experiences of involving or working alongside people

in communities in co-production.

So what's your experience been of co-production?

Uh,

can I have give you a slightly long-winded answer,

Isaac?

I think the starting point when I got into doing applied social research was that

At that time,

when

the experience of minority communities,

particularly black communities,

but I would say across the all minority communities,

at that time when research was being done with those communities,

it was often being done to those communities.

And as importantly,

it was often trying to understand their behaviours and how that explained

the inequality that they experience.

So for example,

The

evidence on on disproportionate numbers of black young men in the prison system

led to a whole set of studies that try to understand whether the single parenting

is being brought up in a single parent household was the cause of it or

or other aspects of,

of uh uh parenting such as the discipline methods and so on.

And it very much seemed to be that

if there was an inequality,

it was the problem was.

Caused by the communities rather than the

systems around them and certainly not by by

by racism.

So when I got into it

and myself amongst many others,

we started to try and think about

how do we change this narrative?

How do we get the focus to be on racism

rather than being on,

on communities and

what communities do or don't do.

So much of the early work

uh actually didn't do very much work with

with individuals at all.

It's ended up focusing on systems and structures and,

and so on.

But it became quite obvious after a

while that actually that approach wasn't satisfactory.

Uh,

it didn't really give you a full insight on firstly how people were experiencing

racism.

But as importantly,

what would make a difference?

What would change that,

that uh that uh experience of of racism,

how could we

put together interventions or support that would help people.

People

um flourish or thrive and so on.

So,

um,

I think

towards the end of the 1990s.

I started doing more work with

with individuals and families and communities as well to

try and understand their experiences and then try and place those experiences.

But to be honest,

at that time,

much of our ideas of involvement were still very much

in the old traditional way,

and

you were the subject,

I was the researcher,

and,

and so on.

And that was most clearly demonstrated in,

in what we thought,

or I thought was a groundbreaking piece of work where

we spoke to about 38,

uh,

black,

Asian and minority ethnic young disabled people.

About their experience of independence and independent living.

And it was a

really good piece.

We got a wide range of young people speaking to us.

Uh,

physical disabilities,

learning disabilities,

um,

range of ages and so on.

But in presenting it somebody said ask me a question about.

Relationships.

What,

what,

what had we discovered about?

Uh,

particularly teenagers and relationships,

and I thought,

oh,

actually.

There's virtually nothing in the report

about relationships,

particularly intimate relationships or

or tho those sorts of peer relationships.

And I wondered why that was and I had to,

I have to acknowledge actually that was

my fault,

the way I'd constructed the,

the research rather than

because

those young people didn't want to speak about it.

It was something I had.

So again it then challenged our whole ideas about how do we actually set up

projects,

how do we actually construct them.

To actually take,

take it forward.

Now we've tried to do better,

um,

but I,

I have to be honest,

uh,

each time we,

we've tried,

there,

there has still been challenges around it and particular challenges.

How do we actually acknowledge the time,

effort,

and energy people put into

participating in our,

in our work?

We've got,

we've got very good at making sure every get,

everybody gets paid.

However,

it's also clear not everybody gets paid as much as I do

or not everybody gets paid as much as the staff do.

And I think that inevitably creates a,

uh,

an imbalance in in involvement.

It inevitably means that uh

people are still having to juggle whether they participate with us

or don't participate with us because of the priorities that they face.

And to be honest,

I don't think we're still resolved that.

I don't think we've,

we've managed to.

To do that,

my defensive response sometimes is that,

well,

that's what the fun is.

are willing to pay for and that that's,

but in some senses it's perhaps also an

indication that we've not fought hard enough.

Perhaps it's the indication that we've not

quite understood.

Um,

the importance of,

uh,

rebalancing that relationship and,

and doing something something about it.

And can I ask you like,

how does,

um,

experiences of racism show up in,

the work that you do?

Does it show up to,

uh,

you know,

people still have experiences of racism in,

in the work that you do?

So,

you know,

um.

The regularity with which people will talk to us about about racism is

is seems to be stand out in comparison to

universities and others doing that work.

Yeah,

you know.

We've always

argued against essentialism against suggesting that

only Asians can interview Asians or early

Caribbeans can interview Caribbeans or or whatever permutation we want to come to.

However,

we also always been clear.

That if you don't have minority ethnic people

in doing the research,

leading the research and so on,

you actually end up with a different,

different uh product to the one that you,

you want to achieve.

So we think it is a,

is of significance.

And we've found in almost all circumstances that we've been

able to get people to talk about their experience of,

of racism.

In some senses,

particularly with,

uh,

people,

uh,

young people with learning disability,

it's often been a discussion about being treated differently

rather than the use of the word racism.

But that

is often a product of the fact that uh a lot

of those young people have been brought up and have been

educated in specialist schools and those specialist schools rarely if ever.

Talk about this thing called racism.

I'm not sure they can talk about being treated differently either,

but

it's rarely a word that's that's used and therefore when you come along and say,

Have you,

you know,

it,

but people are quite clear about being treated differently,

being treated differently,

uh,

to their able-bodied or,

or non-learning disabled,

uh,

counterparts,

but also being treated differently to the white,

uh,

counterparts with a learning disability as well.

So,

so that's often there.

I think,

but quite often

that uh discussion tends to be about the individual experience.

This happened to me,

this incident I was called this name.

I was pushed here.

I was.

Denied entry here and so on.

Well,

there's less discussion of,

although it does appear sometimes,

what there's less discussion about is

whether this is a,

a general experience of,

of your community or of

the people that you live with.

Uh,

and I think sometimes there's a struggle

to extrapolate your individual experience to whether or not this is a,

this is a wider,

wider experience and.

That's something I think perhaps reflects also

the wider malaise in Britain where.

Um,

unless somebody's called you a name,

it's almost impossible to,

to say whether that that uh is racism that's led to your poorer experiences.

A lot of people have spoken about,

um,

microaggressions or

the sense of being treated differently and it being quite hard to say that's racism.

So I'm wondering about sort of

co-production and involvement.

So like,

what do you think needs to change?

Like,

what can we change?

What needs to change to make

co-production and collaboration more inclusive of

global majority,

racialized communities?

I wish I knew the answer to,

to that,

Isaac.

I suspect there are lots of little things that

we should do better or we should do differently,

but whether or not that gets us to a point where.

Where everybody feels that they're able to engage and be involved and I,

I'm not sure and I think it's going to be a matter of of still trying it.

The first and starting point is that it's,

it's shocking to me to even to this day how often

if somebody hasn't started off by thinking about who is

it that we're going to have in the room,

that we end up in a room with almost white people,

even when we're dealing with issues around discrimination and disadvantage,

it,

it's,

it's so often the case that you will turn up and.

Uh,

discover that all the disabled people are white or all

the people with a learning disability are white or.

Or all the women are white and so on,

and you,

and it's because the starting point hasn't been

how are we going to make sure that actually

we have a diverse population uh attending here.

And sometimes it's just the assumption

that because we're dealing with discrimination,

we will necessarily

have people come forward and,

and that that's not the case.

So we need to start there.

The second thing is about how we actually make

people feel comfortable that if they do come,

they're going to be treated with respect and,

and with care.

I'm not sure we always do that,

you know,

it was taken by your

presentation at the commissioner's conference about.

Uh,

how,

um,

the assumption seems to be that just because you've arrived,

that's a big achievement and so on,

but,

but it's not,

you know,

that's just the starting point.

And I still think that we don't do things often

well enough to ensure people feel comfortable,

people feel that they can talk,

people feel that they're going to be appreciated if they share,

protected if they share

challenging information and so on.

And often

people think that they've done,

done the right thing by having

I don't know,

um.

diverse food or or

or having it in a place where people feel comfortable rather than

the usual venues and so on.

But that that's just a minor part of actually

making people feel welcome and making people feel appreciated.

The third thing I think is that,

you know,

Gus John me many years ago,

um,

at a conference on for the British Sociological Association,

did a presentation and said that when,

when black people ask him,

should they be involved in research,

he says

that they should,

their answer should be F off.

Because

the,

the reality was that,

um,

that research,

and I think it's also true about uh

generally around involvement is,

is exploitative rather than,

uh,

reciprocal or rather than productive for the people who are being involved.

So I think the third thing we have to do

is we have to show people

how their participation has then made a difference.

So the simplest thing of feeding back to people that,

you know,

you said this,

this is what we did,

doesn't happen very often.

And if it does happen,

it's so far down the road that

sometimes people have even forgotten that they were involved in in something.

So we,

we need to create that sort of.

Feedback loop that

that that actually works.

And then I think the 4th thing is that we've got

to start demonstrating that the involvement actually needs to change.

Um,

often the issues being addressed are really thorny.

So for example,

I can't remember how many years now we've all been working around.

Trying to improve the experience of black men in the mental health system.

And it's just shocking to me that to this day,

we still have the same things coming up.

More likely to be on a,

on a drugs regime rather than a walking therapy.

More likely to come through the criminal justice system rather than,

uh,

through primary care.

Um,

less likely to have

seen a voluntary organisations in the 12 months before,

before

being sectioned and so on.

These are all patterns that were.

Identified 30 years ago and we're still doing the same so you know.

Now saying to somebody,

please be involved with this work,

they would have every right to say,

well.

What difference is it going to make?

How is it going to change and I think.

That points to something else is that we actually perhaps don't do

and you know the raceality Foundation is,

is as culpable as anyone.

We don't do.

Um,

and we don't argue strongly enough for the,

the changes that we know need need to happen.

So for example,

we've now debated for at least 10 years the use of,

of legal

processes to,

to bring about change around mental health,

and so far we've shied away from that,

but.

I can't help but think we've exhausted every other route

and

really the only option now left is,

is,

is judicial review

and and because that's the only thing that's going to get people to take action.

Can I ask you like what per what impact does this have on you

personally knowing,

seeing these challenges around

involvement.

I have to be honest,

uh,

Isaac,

uh,

when,

when we've had people involved,

it's,

it's been perhaps the most fruitful part of,

of the work,

and it's the thing that often keeps you going because

even when people tell you about dreadful experiences,

the fact that they feel confident enough,

they feel safe enough to,

to be able to share those experiences with you.

Is,

is,

is hopefully a sign that you've done something right,

that you've done something that that's made them feel

they're able to participate.

there's always a sense even after those occasions that you think to yourself.

You know,

at least we've

We,

we,

we've been able to get people to open up and so on.

However,

I have to be honest,

uh,

um,

uh,

I've become increasingly angrier and angrier and,

and.

Um,

I say oh Jabir's got his angry face on again in my presentation,

but it's.

It's just,

you know,

after so many years when you're repeating the

same evidence and saying these are the things

that need to be done to bring about change and people then still go away.

And don't change,

you,

you inevitably get angry,

so that commissioner's confidence.

Um,

I went up to the person who presented from skills for care and pointed out to her that

while she said at length that uh the the.

The new strategy that they were developing for

the social care workforce was data driven,

that she'd missed a huge part of the data,

which is that

in many parts of the country,

the biggest part of the social care workforce is black Asian and minority ethnic.

They're the ones who experience the greatest disadvantage,

or pay rates more likely to be on,

zero hour contracts,

more likely to miss out on things like holiday pay and so on.

And yet you've now presented

this huge endeavour you're going to take forward.

uh,

and,

and you've not even mentioned them once,

um,

and most importantly.

We've created a situation where comparatively poor

people are now looking after even poorer people

and

we,

we don't see.

We don't seem to want to do,

do anything about it,

and her response was,

oh,

you know,

in 20 minutes I,

there's only so much to me

how,

how is that an answer?

How is that a response?

So you're never to be,

you know.

Well,

I never did get angry about it and

um.

I'm rude to people as a result,

which obviously isn't isn't isn't a good thing,

but.

Uh.

Can I ask you,

like,

what role do you see

organisations that aren't,

uh,

centred around

being anti-racist or,

um,

doing the kind of work?

Like,

so I'm wondering,

like,

what

do you think about the role of your white peers

or organisations that extensively white doing and understanding this work,

um,

play within being

more inclusive?

We've certainly helped some organisations move the dial in,

in,

in what they do and how they do it and um.

Um,

so for example,

with 11 organisation,

uh,

they were so obsessed in getting things wrong

that she then didn't do anything at all.

And we point,

you know,

we were able to make them understand that they often

there were other areas that they,

they were willing to take risks in.

Even though they didn't necessarily know what was the best thing to do,

yet for some reason in terms of race,

they didn't want to take any risk for fear that.

They'd be labelled and,

and I think that

2 years down the road,

they've become more confident about

being willing to say

we're going to try this.

It may not work,

but

at least we're going to try it,

and so on.

So I think,

I think there is,

there is a lot of that.

I do think

And sorry again,

this is a long rambling response.

I do think there was a point after the murder of George Floyd where

lots of organisations did do a bit of self-reflection,

lots of organisations that

at least put in some time,

energy and effort

into thinking about how

and whether they were

addressing issues to do with racial inequality well.

So inevitably did it superficially,

I remember getting

one email from a leading organisation saying uh.

Is it possible for you to come along and do an hour slot at our,

at our staff meeting on

on racism?

How on earth is that meant to

meant to be,

uh,

an attempt to address this issue?

That in itself is a demonstration that you're not,

you're not really,

you've not really thought.

But there was a,

as I say,

with the murder of George Floyd and the reaction to it,

there was a point.

Where people were seriously thinking about

about it.

And some of that has continued,

um.

The National Lottery,

for example,

has continued its funding,

has done some things that are different from.

But for the most part,

um,

I think people have seen

2010 and the introduction of the and

the the response of the Conservative government

as being uh

uh.

Not necessarily a green light,

but certainly an opportunity to perhaps not talk about race anymore

or to talk about it in under the umbrella of,

of diversity,

which when you,

when you try to unpick it with them,

it's not clear what they mean by it,

uh,

at all,

you know,

and for some organisations,

diversity means geographical diversity,

um.

For others it's,

it's an issue around social class rather than about

uh about race and racism and some.

And while as I say,

George Floyd's murder

brought about some change,

I do feel we we've gone back to that

that thing of.

You know,

um,

we're not really going to talk about it unless we're pushed,

um.

And I'm not sure

anybody sees the prospect of an incoming Labour government

as as leading to a huge amount of change in

in that either.

What

is different

is that the pictures are all different.

So,

Any new report that appears from

Majority of these organisations now will have a more diverse.

Set of pictures in them,

but

that doesn't necessarily indicate

that actually they're doing anything different

um.

It it's very superficial.

I'm not sure I've answered your question.

I think you did,

and I have a follow up which is,

so thinking about like people with lived experiences

of racism or living experience of racism and.

The idea that,

you know,

we have a government that said there's no such thing as structural racism.

Like,

ah,

what,

what's your,

um,

like,

say,

what's your experience of

kind of those sorts of attacks on people's lived experiences and

the denial that it exists in the first instance?

It,

it,

it's deeply depressing.

It's deeply depressing.

Um.

But it,

it's part of a wider malaise.

I like,

I don't know if you recall the murder of,

of those two young black women,

um,

uh,

Biba,

Henry and.

God,

um,

I've forgotten Liber's,

uh,

sister's name.

apologies for that,

but there was a uh

An an inquiry after that led by

the inspectorate to understand what had happened and whether or

not uh racism played a part in the police's response

both to the initial search but also to the subsequent.

Uh,

treatment of,

of the,

of,

of the young women's bodies and so on.

And the conclusion was that it didn't.

There was no they

they concluded there wasn't

racism.

There were poor experiences,

but there wasn't racism.

Now that again goes to the heart of what I've said before that um people assume that.

Unless a certain word has been used or or uh

something obviously discriminatory has happened that racism doesn't exist.

But if we understand structural racism,

it's about the patterns of behaviour rather than.

So if

one particular group are regularly

experiencing comparatively poorer experiences than others.

Then that's an indication,

then there must be an explanation that isn't just that this is random.

But that this is actually part of a a pattern and and uh

the evidence is quite clear that the police's treatment of

black,

Asian and minority ethnic people,

particularly women,

is comparatively poorer than

than everyone else.

And the only explanation can be

uh can be racist and there's,

there is no other,

no other explanation.

So when the government turns around and says there isn't any,

you,

you then see that this is part of a pattern.

The worrying thing is that it's also

uh politically driven.

you will you will see the announcement that Jeremy Hunt made in.

In December for an extra 7 million

pounds worth of funding to address anti-Semitism.

Now that's welcome

and and there should

be money being spent on addressing anti Semitism because it is a scourge.

But how is it the case that 7 million pounds was found to address anti-Semitism?

Yet we don't seem to

want to fund any other form of attempts to address racism.

How,

how can that be?

And it creates that thing where we end up

hitting communities against each other.

Yeah,

you know,

the basis of that experience is,

is the same.

It's,

it's

racially motivated prejudice that's behind it.

And I'm wondering

about

er so a lot of people have said that there needs

to be uncomfortable conversations or we need to do things differently.

And I'm wondering how,

like,

do we get into those uncomfortable conversations?

How do we

Is it the responsibility of

racialized communities to do that?

Like,

I'm,

I'm

here,

you know,

I've heard so much or we need to have uncomfortable conversations.

But what are those conversations about?

What

is the approach to maybe addressing some of these challenges you've spoken about?

So one of the things we've always argued is that

actually racism itself makes some things appear to be uncomfortable.

And it,

it creates that frame in which we operate on.

So when we were doing some work with the Early Intervention Foundation.

We spent a little bit of time

um with them about why they felt uncomfortable

um around using certain terms because they weren't

clear whether they should be saying ethnic minority,

global majority,

black,

Asian and minority ethnic or bay.

But what we did was we started off that discussion

and we were being co-facilitated by one of my colleagues

by her asking

uh all the participants.

Would you describe me as a woman?

And uh

sorry,

yeah.

OK.

Would you describe

describe me as a girl?

Oh,

no,

no.

You're,

you're a woman.

You're not a girl.

So am I allowed to have a girls' night out?

Oh,

actually,

that's something different.

Uh,

it's OK to use that phrase.

There and she then went on and explored

various other other phrases to describe women and

the conclusion of that was actually.

Something that we think is obvious and easily

describable is also complicated.

Yeah,

we don't see that as being complicated.

Yeah,

when we talk,

start talking about.

The words and phrases we use to talk about black,

Asian,

and ethnic people,

we see that as being complicated.

So,

you know,

it's impacted,

and you can replicate it in other things,

whether it's disability,

whether it's age,

you know,

I remember when I was younger if Asian man got to 60,

I thought.

This man's old,

but also,

so,

my God,

he's,

he's made it to 60.

Now,

you know,

30 years later,

somebody gets to 60 and they die,

everybody thinks oh god,

what happened?

How do that,

so you know,

even things like age are complicated and and and so on.

So I think we,

we do have ways of having those conversations that can be done and done effectively.

But we need to recognise that actually because of racism itself,

people see these conversations as being more difficult than

than or more complicated than than other things

when actually

uh it's racism that that that that's driving it.

Beyond that,

it's quite clear that um

if you're not committed to to delivering these changes,

it's there's no

there's no conversation that you can have that's going to bring about change.

Um,

we,

we've recently

had a conversation with one leading organisation.

Who wanted us to come in and

and do some training,

we said we we don't do that sort of training,

but what we do do is run action learning sets.

They said,

oh,

that's interesting.

You know,

would you put in a proposal?

And we said,

Well,

we'll only put in a proposal if you tell us,

uh,

what resources you've got for doing this,

because there's no point in us saying

we're going to do this work and it's costing £10,000

and then you turn around and say to us,

we've got 1000 pounds.

And we went round and round in circles with them,

or,

you know,

we'll,

we'll find the resources and we kept saying no,

uh,

unless you've found the resources,

there's no point in us putting in the words.

To,

to,

to do that uh proposal because it takes

time,

energy and effort on our part to,

to do the proposal.

In the end we did,

they said,

you know,

yes,

we have found money.

We put in a proposal and then they turned to us and said,

oh no,

we're not gonna go with you,

we're gonna go with someone else.

I know.

You were only talking to us.

You only found the resources because we told you.

But actually,

you're now going with someone else.

How has that come about?

You never told us that there was anyone else.

You never told us this was a competitive process.

Mhm.

And you then can't help but wonder whether people were

genuinely committed with in terms of taking this forward,

did they really want.

Wanted to happen or did what they wanted was that the Race Equality Foundation have.

Have put in a bid,

so we've ticked that box

and I,

as I say,

I think these difficult conversations

if people aren't committed.

They're not,

they're not gonna get anywhere

um.

They may end up even being

Potentially damaging because

People will,

will become aggrieved

rather than participate genuinely in them.

Um,

what are your hopes for the future of

Doing more collaboration or a more um

I suppose accessible

collaboration world or co-production world.

I think

Funders have become better at understanding the value of collaboration,

but also that it comes at a cost

and that that needs to be made.

Funders have even become better at challenging those organisations that

don't want to do collaboration or or want to do it in the.

In the us and them model that that was there as well.

So I think there,

there is hope that that's going to lead to a change.

Uh,

I've been particularly surprised by the

National Institute for Health Research's programmes

because I think they've they've perhaps.

Gone

and taken a lead on on these things,

although recently their their new chief executive seems to be

stepping back from from some of those those things.

But I would hope that that the fact that that's where the

money is going would lead to more people taking on seriously.

Some of the challenges around collaboration and

co-production and and involvement and so on.

Um,

and

if there are lessons to be learned from elsewhere,

from,

from things like the Swan initiative which.

Try to drive forward the representation and

involvement of women in in higher education,

where the money goes,

uh organisations follow

and so hopefully that that's going to.

Going to be key in what the lottery is doing and NIHR are doing and so on.

I think it

is,

is helpful.

Beyond that,

I think

Um,

we've become a little better,

um,

you know,

our trustees have changed our.

Uh,

who we employ has changed.

Hopefully the way we work has changed as well.

Has it changed as much as it should have done,

I'm not sure,

but

hopefully that that's the case.

Certainly some of our sister organisation in the race ecology sector

have changed as well and are are are doing better.

Um,

and most clearly the way it's been demonstrated is a,

uh,

is an intersectional approach to

both who's involved,

but also in,

in the way we present issues around racial inequality.

I think are signs that

that things are things are changing.

Um,

Well I think we're still struggling with is to

do that final thing I mentioned earlier on,

which is to actually demonstrate that people's involvement has led to

to significant change in people's experiences and I'm not sure we've got there yet.

And part of that is that I don't think.

Any of us or

or the right,

or all of us are in a position to push,

pull the levers for change that need to be pulled and to

to bring about,

bring about

that change.

So I think that's where the the real effort needs to be is that

we need to find better ways of

demonstrating that people's involvement has.

Has resulted in things actually being different.

Absolutely.

I was wondering if you had any questions for me?

I think the

I don't want to get into a situation where we say co-production only looks like this.

But I,

I do wonder whether there is something,

you know,

I've been ruminating on,

on what some of the things that you said,

but I've been.

I'm not

sure what you said is necessarily represented in in

in some of the things that

the leading lights have written or whether it's TAP

or whether it's the Social Care Institute for Excellence.

I'm not sure it's captured there.

And I do wonder whether there's going to be opportunities or

whether you're intending to use this as an opportunity to.

Better describe what

what uh

co-production looks like when it when it genuinely

involves black Asian and minority of people.

Hope so.

I think.

There's,

there's a direct conflict in,

in this work where

Everybody

I would say that they believe in co-production like everybody that

I've interviewed would say they believe

in being anti-racist or non-discriminatory.

But beneath that is

how will then people showing up,

how is co-production experienced and for me.

Um,

the

way that we might be doing co-production.

You

cannot really be damaging and harmful for racialized people,

um,

asking us to share our experiences of trauma,

not thinking about the impact,

never seeing,

as you

have shared in,

um,

your story,

never seeing

that through our sharing,

there is a tangible change or there is some sort of change.

Um,

and when I bring these topics and ideas and

views to spaces that are probably predominantly white,

Of course you get the eye rolling,

you get the defensiveness.

Um,

I think.

Maybe there's an opportunity

Have more people saying these sorts of things through these stories that

organisations go actually we can do this if we believe

in the principles of co-production.

That

In itself means that we are going to want to

work alongside and with people

from global majority,

racialized communities

and.

We have to take a very different approach,

and we have to be very honest about

some of the harms,

some of the missed opportunities that have happened.

It is hard,

and I think

there are some great people banging that drum.

Is it enough?

I'm not sure.

Will we stop banging that drum?

No.

Um,

will I have my angry face as well?

Yes.

Um,

but all of these

small things.

Um,

I think can lead to a real big change,

um,

hence why we continue,

I continue to do this work.

Um,

and having more voices add to that kind of.

Can be very lonely being the only person in the meeting we're saying,

how comes

I know so many diverse people,

but,

and

I'm the only person that has brown skin in that space.

So I think that was a bit of a ramble on my part.

um,

I haven't got any more questions for you.

Do you have any for me?

um.

No,

obviously,

it'd be good to,

good to see the next stage or,

or,

or whatever you're able to share in the next stage,

that that'd be

really valuable.

Absolutely.

So what happens next is I will send you a thank you email,

um,

and we have a small,

uh,

Honorarium,

um,

that can get to your organisation,

as yourself,

um,

and an outline of what,

what next.

So we plan to have two workshops where

we invite people to come and,

um,

help us make sense of some of the stories.

Then we are gonna have a conversation of change event where we're gonna invite

lots of people

like the very people we've talked about

to come and help us

explore

what we need to do as a result of hearing these stories.

We,

um,

and I,

I would say the co-production collective have

Initially wanted your stories and then gone,

Well,

actually,

people have said they want more,

so they're gonna have an insight and learning report,

which,

um,

this will feed into.

And we see everyone that's shared the story being part of that whole journey.

So I'll keep you informed.

So,

what to expect from you next is an email and then some suggested dates,

and then

there'll be a bit of a gap around us pulling together a report.

Um,

but I'll keep you informed as we go along.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you,

Isaac.

Hopefully it's,

um,

it's very much so.

Um,

and everybody's contribution is always useful.

Um,

so thank you,

and I look forward to seeing you around.

OK.

Take care.

Bye-bye.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

08/01/2025