Isaac talks to Tony About Co-Production

Comput Can I get you to introduce yourself, please? Yeah, hi, um, I'm Tony, T McKenzie, and um, I'm a co-production facilitator and consultant. That I was wondering if we could explore, so I have a question and the question is um what uh so we're asking people from racialized community what their experiences have been in relation to their work or experiences around co-production. Mhm. Um, Overall, it's been quite good

Um, I think, um. Co-production is moving from And nice to have to something that a lot more organisations um recognised as an essential. Um I think The space is still very populated and

By people that don't look like me, um. And so, I think sometimes. It can come across as

As a tick box or a teaching or something to do rather than something that is um. Developed together um and I give you some examples of that. So, um

Sometimes I'm invited to co-production spaces either to deliver designer training or to give input based on my lived experience, and often I'm the only person of colour in that space and I question. Whether it's because of my colour or because of my expertise, and it's not always very clear, but sometimes it's, it has been quite blatant and upfront. We couldn't find anybody else or um you work really well with us, so we just wanted to go with you um and while it's flattering on one hand

The question needs to be asked as to If there's not more people. That look like me or brown people. What are you doing to include them in this space, B

Help retain them. So some people come and leave because it doesn't feel very um supportive, engaging, rewarding, um, or And, and this is things that people said to me they felt that um when they're having support issues, it's not been valued or treated in the same way as when their white counterparts are having. So for example, some people are constantly invited or called up to co-production spaces and sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't, sometimes they deliver it, sometimes they don't

But um I, I've had two. Experiences where people of colour who when they haven't shown up, they haven't been invited back again, so the threshold or the tolerance level seems to be lower. Um more personal experiences, I suppose for me is around

Tokenism that I sometimes feel um. It's not my expertise that is front and centre, but it's what I visually represent. So whether it's on people's videos, uh, what do you call it, uh, website, it's, it's more of a A, a window dressing rather than um a deep-rooted, uh, commitment to um include, um, as many people and as many voices around the table

And I asked you, you talked about tokenism, and I'm wondering how. Um, that plays out in the very co-productive spaces and how this affects your feeling and your sense of belonging. So That's a really good question and it's something I've been wrestling with recently because I think when it is tokenistic, your voice doesn't, well my voice doesn't seem to carry

As much weight, so it's really there just, I really feel that sometimes I'm just there to be a visual representation, but in terms of my ideas, contributions, that's not taken into account. I, I, I give you an example. I was involved in a piece of work um and we were using some kit that was new to most, if not all of us, and I said that um

I think it's too risky to use this piece of work um externally with, with, with people, um, because we're not very familiar with. They'll be less familiar with it um and there was some um and are in and then basically what was said was we paid for it, so we're going to use that. Um, and I felt that, that I shut down the, the conversation and a decision was made, but also I felt if I wasn't there in just a tokenistic, uh, role, that, that would have been heard and treated accordingly

We did use the kit and there was a lot of feedback that it didn't, it caused issues, so it did take away a bit from what we were trying to do. It's a really great example. Can I ask you about how

These experiences show up in these spaces, so how does tokenism, racism, or, you know, not having people look and sound like you show up in these spaces? So I, I said before, often I'm, I'm in a minority. I'm like Jody one, but people are. Talking about equality and diversity and inclusion and that seems to mean everything other than black and brown people, um, all is one or two black and brown people and There isn't enough in my opinion, there isn't enough looking at organisations looking at themselves to see

What are they doing that is not attracting or retaining people. It's like, but they don't join us, so the onus is on us for not being in spaces that are, um, just very, very white, um, very, very middle class, very, very privileged at times, um, and, and so sometimes it feels, um, a bit. Uncomfortable, it feels like um I'm pandering to white fragility

It feels like um. I have to bite my tongue and think, all right, let's just get the work done, um, but I don't feel I'm bringing all of myself there because I'm saying we, we're talking about, um, You know, getting all the people around the table, but look at the makeup of us, you know, of a team of whatever, we're just underrepresented even in this space. So what are we really doing to To make that happen, to, to really get people um with live and learn experience and also people with um

You know, professional experience working in in this sector. That was very profound and I'm wondering about. That sense of being there as a tokenistic as a token, and um so I'm just wondering about about co-productions based on the idea of bringing people together and having that diverse voice and experience

And you talked about white fragility and privilege. How does that play up and what effects does that have on the work and people in these spaces? So I think it plays up and affects it in many ways. So people tend to go to people that that are familiar who look like them, sound like them, been to universities, or the same university, and so it becomes an echo chamber um and as I said before, that the notion of different voices or inclusion seems

To to include everything but people of black and brown skin, um, and I think I think the work is lacking something in that space then because um we have got things to contribute. Um, but it's almost like people who are cherry picking one or two black and brown people who show up all the time in all the spaces, and I'm like why there not more diversity of us? Why, you know, why is it just the same few all the time and why is that not causing Uh, people to question what they can do to bring in more black and brown people, um, and, and retain them. So, you know, sometimes they do come, but because the space doesn't feel

Brave or safe or welcoming, they stay for a bit and then they leave. And Well, Could we do different to ensure that this doesn't continue to happen? I think there's lots of things we could do, and I think first and foremost. I am a very reflective practitioner and so you know, every few months um and then halfway through the year and at the end of the year, for example, I would look at the evaluation and feedback forms that I'm getting and if there's any

Themes or recurring things then that says to me that's an area that I need to address and I don't, and in a similar way, I don't think people reflect. they're quite happy with the status quo. They're quite happy

They're quite comfortable, um. And they don't seem to think actually we've been running X amount of programmes we've been doing this, we've already been working with this percentage or with this particular 2 or 3 people. What can we do to improve that? And I think that's a really good place to start to look at your work and who you're working with and say what's working well and where's those areas of improvement

And it's not enough to say that black and brown people are hard to reach. Change the question into why is uh. Services wise organisations hard to access for black and brown people, you know, or even when they do access it, what is the issue around retainment? Why don't they stay, you know, what is so um unwelcoming or we talk quite inclusive, but it, it just doesn't seem to include black and brown people enough in my opinion

And you gave like some really good examples of how this shows that up. I'm really left with this profound sense of safety. How do we create safety for black, brown, minoritized people and communities to be involved in co-production? Um, beyond single projects or even within single project, what's the, the, the thing that needs paying attention to? I think the important thing is to start dialogues, so a bit like what we're doing now, you know, talking about it, why isn't it happening? Why is it an issue? Why is there such a scarcity? Um, I also think as well as having, uh, dialogues and conversations about it, it's important to then act on it

Um, and as I said, for example, people can do reviews, people can be more proactive, um, rather than passive in actually, um, recruiting and including, um, and retaining black and brown people. Um, I think. I, I think, yeah, it's, we need to move from the passive or let's get one or two tokenistic black and brown people to be more proactive, to get more black and brown voices included um in in all of these conversations, in all of these pieces of work

How do we or how have you insured? That Within that there are further harms created. It's really difficult, um, especially when it comes to contracting and payment and stuff because Personally, sometimes I've ended up tolerating more than I normally would because I need the money, and that shouldn't be the case, um. I'll give you an example

I'm working with uh a company that professes to work in solidarary professes to work um with power, but last year and, and this year, my contract, um, Came well after the work had started and there's issues with the contract around um payments around cancellations and all that sort of thing and there's a, it feels that they move from being working with people to being very authoritative and Uh, and then that, that doesn't sit well because I'm saying if you're treating them like this, how could you be professing to be working in so that you working around joint decision maker how when that's not happening with me, um, and I think it's difficult because You know, the bills need to be paid but at the same time there's there's issues around integrity and and values and, and yeah, and I think it's really hard sometimes so sometimes people, I think. Walk away, they put up with stuff that is not happy, they're not happy with um. And I think if If we can move from Comfortable spaces to actually being in discomfort to talk about what this looks like and feels like and why we need to create level playing fields rather than um black and brown people having to fit into, fit into um systems that are not designed with them in mind, you know, they're they're an add on, then I think we'll go some way to

Change in the future, improving, and it can be done because um there's uh another organisation that I work with, for example, that I often cite as um really good example of um Doing anti-racist work, um, being really, uh, proactive in the recruitment, um, from their board to their staff, to including, you know, also in with their associates and, and including, um, Black and brown people, um, so it can be done, but it, but I think it has to be very intentional. I think people have to be prepared to step out of comfort zones and the status quo and It's not even radical, but just do things that they're professing to say they do, you know, live by the values that they're putting up on websites and stuff, you know, we talk about being human, when we talk about all voices, you know, what does all voices really look like and sound like? Really great examples and you, you talked about anti-racist work. Why is it important? What is the relationship to co-production and anti-racism work? Um, there's a big, in my opinion, there is a big relationship between anti-racist work and co-production because co-production as I view it is a strength-based approach

It's also trauma informed and it's also saying If we're gonna design and deliver services, we need to include the people who have used, who are using those services to help us shape, design them, right? Now, If black and brown people are not included in those conversations in those decision making processes, and if they haven't got a seat at the table ashirley Chisholm describes it, then the services are instinctly going to be designed without a robust anti-racist um intention, awareness, and, uh, approach. And In your experience, what are some, what are the things that might support anti-racist approaches? So I think um anti as opposed to non-racist is proactive. So it's not something that is just written as a statement and stuck on the website, but it's ongoing work, so it's about looking at um

Well Taking a snapshot of where people are and where we would like to be and then just creating little steps of how to get there and some of that is going to involve more learning some of that is going to involve going to spaces that they probably Um, not that familiar or comfortable going, um, and To put into action, um, rather than just taking away or rather than just saying, well, I've gone to this conference or um we've got this statement, you know, how is it a living document? How is it something that um Staff users trusted people, how is it, how is it something that everybody involved in that organisation can contribute to say this is a live document. It's, it involves people taking personal responsibility for um their awareness and development around um anti-racist approaches as well as an organisational um responsibility. Fast forward 10 years, what would you like the future of co-production to feel and look like from an anti-racist lens? So, yeah, um, there's always that tension between

The world as it is and all the unfairness and inequalities and the world that we'd like it to be, right? And so my pick up food, put your gibber jab, come on. I'm so sorry, Isaac. Um, let me put my phone on do not disturb

OK. Um, Sorry, um, so yeah, in 10 years' time, so I think my, my 10 years vision is how I'd like the world to be, but that's not a fixed state, right? So what I, what I would ideally like um in terms of co-production from an anti-racist lens is that we are still talking about it, but we're not talking about it in the sense of um. Starting, we're talking about it from a sense of how do we build this, how do we continue, how do we um go deeper, that it's just part and parcel of anybody who's doing any work that there's anti-racist approach is just

Uh, interwoven, it's, it's, it's the very fabric, the very essence of the work that we're doing, and that it's something that we don't put into cruise mode or drive mode, but it's something that we're paying attention to with going back. We're looking at, OK, where can we improve in this? What do we need to fine tune on this? How, how can we develop this? How can we learn from others? How can we share our learning with others? Absolutely. One of the things that really struck me when you said that there's gonna be discomfort and pain around this kind of a work

As human beings, we're often pain avoidant or we want to be in spaces that are not discomfort. The thing for us. How do you see kind of creating, like I'm wondering about the people that

Aren't aware, aren't thinking about anti-racism, aren't thinking about inclusive co-production, how do we get them to enter the spaces of, Pain and discomfort. So I think when we move to a risk averse or a pain averse. Type of environment that's not real

It's not sustainable, right? So if you, you know, I'm in the business of learning and development, right, and growth, and even in human growth, there's something called growing pains, right? That's part and parcel of, of development as things um change, develop, there's gonna be some pain involved. But I think there's a difference between pain and damage, and I think that um. Uh, also like, you know, there's a, there's a model around the, the learning

Zone versus so your comfort zone, your learning zone, then the panic zone, and the panic zone to me is, is damage, but there is something about a discomfort when you move from your comfort zone to your learning zone. And so if we say, I don't want to feel discomfort any time or I don't want to feel pain, then we're only ever going to stay in our comfort zone. There's gonna be no growth, there's going to be no development, but I really want to make a distinction

Between the difference between pain and damage. I'm not talking about damage, you know. Being black and brown is it's been really painful and it's uh a lot of trauma involved so you can't

Talk about these issues without hearing the trauma, um, and the damage and the pain that has been done to people, um. And I think when we try to sanitise everything or move away from that, then that's where we end up in situations where today where the status quo is just maintained or things are very nice, but they're not progressive. They're not seeking to develop or seeking to grow

I hope that answered the question. Um, I haven't got any more questions for you. I'm wondering if you've got any thoughts of views you wanted to share with me

Yeah, um, well, first of all, I think. Thank you for this conversation. I think it's been long overdue

Um, I think, um, People have felt very comfortable and. With EDI for example, and so taking their foot off the pedalized but they're not doing much work, you know, um, for George people some people woke up, but It seems like that's no longer in season, that's no longer an issue now, so let's go back to how things were. Now let's continue um to growth, let's continue to develop because, you know

Um, people are still, um, being oppressed because of the colour of their skin. You know, things haven't suddenly got better because it's no longer front page of the news. I mean, you know

There is oppression happening right now and people uh are saying one side is more deserving than the other side, um, but really I think. To to be open, to be honest, to invite people to spaces to say this works for me, this doesn't work for me, um, or as some, as a black or brown person, these are the things I struggle with. These are things I struggle with in these spaces

Um, I've got some ideas or how can we as a group. Think about how we can make this a space where everybody can feel that they can bring their whole selves and that we're not biting our lips or pandering to white fragility and you know, we're frightened, we're going to upset um colleagues or some colleagues cry and then that takes away from the discussion that's been had um because suddenly all the tension is on their well-being rather than the issue that is really at hand. Wonderful

Thank you. Do you have any questions for me, Tony? Um, yeah, my, my question is, um, this is a great piece of work. I said the conversation is long overdue

Um, how is this going to be used? What are we gonna do with it? So we're gonna pull together 12 initial stories to help with how we actively look at. The collective learning and knowledge that comes from the stories in the very um. Part of kind of our approach at PVM we use community reporting and that gives the people that shared their story not only voice and platform but it gives them space to create the solutions and focus the energy

Um, it's a quite a, uh, you know, a stepped approach, so we're gonna be inviting back to help us think about what we heard, um, how did it make us feel, what are the things missing, um. Various kind of questions and where can we take this learning to make that difference. reason To collect stories without those stories then creating the change we want to see

But, you know, then those very people being the change makers. So how is Tony, how is whoever shares the story part of that change as well. Um, I think for me

It's also holding a mirror up to the world of co-production, um, in a way that people might dip in and out of and use in their work. Um, and it's an important moment in time, and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm very passionate about storytelling, and I often talk about the moments and times of our histories, but they help us create our futures. And hopefully this helps us create a, a different future where that status quo isn't me going onto a call thinking, there are no other people looking like me or me saying, well, hold on a second, how does a bunch of people with no experience of racialized experience design a whole service for like like racialized people and

Have people eye eye roll at me. So in a nutshell, we're gonna continue to push and we're gonna use this as part of anti uh racism journey and we growing, um, yeah. That sounds really exciting and um thank you for including me on the journey and um yeah, I look forward to the development because uh yeah, you're gonna be talking to other people and it'd be really interesting to hear um other people's experiences as well because, you know, it's conversations I've had maybe with one or other, but It'd be really nice to hear of people's experiences as well

Thank you for your time. If you're OK, I'll stop the recording there, um.