Report transcript in: Isaac talks to Tony About Co-Production

Please Report the Errrors?

Comput

Can I get you to introduce yourself,

please?

Yeah,

hi,

um,

I'm Tony,

T McKenzie,

and um,

I'm a

co-production

facilitator and consultant.

That

I was wondering if we could explore,

so I have a question and the question is um

what uh so we're asking people from

racialized community what their experiences have been

in relation to their work or experiences around co-production.

Mhm.

Um,

Overall,

it's been quite good.

Um,

I think,

um.

Co-production is moving from

And nice to have to something that a lot more organisations

recognised as an essential.

I think

The space

is still very populated

and.

By people that don't look like me,

um.

And so,

I think sometimes.

It can come across

as.

As a tick box or a teaching or something to do rather than something that is

um.

Developed together um and I give you some examples of that.

So,

um.

Sometimes I'm invited to co-production spaces

either to deliver designer training or

to give input

based on my lived experience,

and

often

I'm

the only person of colour in that space

and

I question.

Whether it's because

of my colour or because of my

expertise,

and it's not always very clear,

but sometimes it's,

it has been quite blatant and upfront.

We couldn't find anybody else or

you work really well with us,

so we just wanted to go with you

and while it's flattering on one hand.

The question needs to be asked as to

If there's not more people.

That look like me or

brown people.

What are you doing to include them in this space,

Help retain them.

So some people come and leave because it doesn't feel very

um supportive,

engaging,

rewarding,

um,

And,

and this is things that people said to me they felt that

um when they're having support issues,

it's not been valued or treated in the same

way as when their white counterparts are having.

So for example,

some

people are constantly invited or called up to co-production spaces

and sometimes they show up,

sometimes they don't,

sometimes they deliver it,

sometimes they don't.

But um

I've had two.

Experiences where people of colour

who when they haven't shown up,

they haven't been invited back again,

so the threshold or the tolerance level seems to be lower.

more personal experiences,

I suppose for me is

around.

Tokenism that I sometimes feel

um.

It's not my expertise that is front and centre,

but it's

what I visually represent.

So whether it's on people's videos,

uh,

what do you call it,

uh,

website,

it's,

it's more of a

a window dressing rather than

a deep-rooted,

uh,

commitment to

um include,

um,

as many people and as many voices around the table.

And I asked you,

you talked about tokenism,

and I'm wondering how.

Um,

that plays out in the very co-productive spaces and how

this affects your feeling and your sense of belonging.

That's a really good question

and it's something I've been wrestling with recently because

I think when it is tokenistic,

your voice doesn't,

well my voice doesn't seem to carry.

As much weight,

it's really there just,

I really feel that sometimes I'm just there to be a visual representation,

but in terms of

ideas,

contributions,

that's not taken into account.

I give you an example.

I was involved in a piece of work

um and we were using some kit that was new to

most,

if not all of us,

and

I said that um.

I think it's too risky to use this piece of work

um externally with,

with,

with people,

um,

because we're not very familiar with.

They'll

be less familiar with it

and there was some um and are in and then basically what was said was we paid for it,

so we're going to use that.

Um,

and I felt that,

that

I shut down

the,

the conversation and a decision was made,

but also

I felt if I wasn't there in just a tokenistic,

uh,

role,

that,

that would have been heard and treated accordingly.

We did use the kit and there was a lot of feedback that

it didn't,

it caused issues,

so it did take away

a bit from what we were trying to do.

It's a really great example.

Can I ask you about

how.

These

experiences show up in these spaces,

so how does

tokenism,

racism,

or,

you know,

not having

people look and sound like you show up in these spaces?

So I,

I said before,

often I'm,

I'm in a minority.

I'm like Jody one,

but people are.

Talking about equality and diversity

and inclusion

and that seems to mean everything

other than black and brown people,

um,

all is one or two black and brown people

and

There isn't enough in my opinion,

there isn't enough

looking at

organisations looking at themselves to see.

What are they doing that is not attracting or retaining people.

It's like,

but they don't join us,

so the onus is

on us for not being in spaces that are,

um,

just very,

very white,

um,

very,

very middle class,

very,

very privileged at times,

um,

and,

and so sometimes it feels,

um,

a bit.

Uncomfortable,

it feels like um I'm pandering to white fragility.

It feels like um.

I have to

bite my tongue and think,

all right,

let's just get the work done,

um,

but I don't feel

I'm bringing

all of myself there because I'm saying we,

we're talking about,

um,

You know,

getting all the people around the table,

but look at the makeup of us,

you know,

of a team of whatever,

we're just

underrepresented

even in this space.

So what are we really doing

To make that happen,

to,

to really get people

with live and learn experience and also

people with um.

You know,

professional experience working in in this sector.

That

was very profound and I'm wondering

about.

That sense

of being there as a tokenistic as a token,

and um

so I'm just wondering about about co-productions based on the idea

of bringing people together and having that diverse voice and experience.

And you talked about white fragility and privilege.

How does that play up and what

effects does that have on the work and

people in these spaces?

So I think it plays up and affects it in many ways.

people tend to go to people that

that are familiar who look like them,

sound like them,

been to

universities,

or the same university,

and

so it becomes an echo chamber

um and as I said before,

that the notion of different voices or

inclusion seems.

To to include everything but people

of black and brown skin,

um,

and I think

I think the work

is lacking something in that space then because

um we have

got things to contribute.

Um,

but it's almost like people who are cherry picking

one or two black and brown people

who

show up all the time in all the spaces,

and I'm like why

there not more diversity of us?

Why,

you know,

why is it

just the same few all the time and why is that not causing

Uh,

people to question what they can do to

bring in more black and brown people,

um,

and,

and retain them.

So,

you know,

sometimes they do come,

but because the space doesn't

feel.

Brave or safe

welcoming,

they stay for a bit and then they leave.

And

Well,

Could we do different

to ensure that this doesn't continue to happen?

I think

there's lots of things we could do,

and I think

first and foremost.

I am a very reflective practitioner and so you know,

every few months um and then halfway through the year and at the end of the year,

for example,

I would look at the evaluation and feedback forms that I'm getting

and if there's any.

Themes or recurring things then that says to me that's an area that I need to address

and I don't,

and in a similar way,

I don't think people reflect.

they're quite happy with the status quo.

They're quite happy.

They're quite comfortable,

um.

And they don't seem to think

actually we've been running X amount of programmes we've been doing this,

we've already been working with this percentage or with this particular

2 or 3 people.

What can we do to improve that?

And I think that's a really good place to start to look at

your work

and who you're working with

and say

what's working well and where's those areas of improvement.

And it's not enough to say that

black and brown people are hard to reach.

Change the question into why is uh.

Services wise organisations hard to access for black and brown people,

you know,

or even when they do access it,

what is the issue around retainment?

Why don't they stay,

you know,

what is so

unwelcoming or

we talk quite inclusive,

but

it,

it just doesn't seem to include black and brown people enough in my opinion.

And you gave like some really good examples of how this shows that up.

I'm really

left with this profound sense of safety.

How do we create safety

for black,

brown,

minoritized people and communities to be involved in co-production?

Um,

beyond single projects or even within single project,

what's the,

the,

the thing that

needs paying attention to?

I think the important thing is to start dialogues,

a bit like what we're doing now,

you know,

talking about it,

why isn't it happening?

Why is it an issue?

Why is there such a scarcity?

Um,

I also think as well as having,

uh,

dialogues and conversations about it,

it's important to then act on it.

Um,

and as I said,

for example,

people can do reviews,

people can be more proactive,

um,

rather than passive in actually,

um,

recruiting and including,

um,

and retaining

black and brown people.

Um,

I think.

I think,

yeah,

it's,

we need to move from the passive

let's get one or two tokenistic black and brown people to be more proactive,

to get

more black and

brown voices included um in

in all of these conversations,

in all of these pieces of work.

How do

we or how have you insured?

That

Within that there are further harms created.

It's really difficult,

um,

especially

when it comes to contracting and payment and stuff because

Personally,

sometimes

I've ended up tolerating more than I normally would

because I need the money,

and that shouldn't be the case,

um.

I'll give you an example.

I'm working with uh

a company that

professes to work in solidarary professes to work um

with power,

but

last year and,

and this year,

my contract,

um,

Came

well after the work had started and there's issues with the contract around

um payments around cancellations and all that sort of thing

and

there's a,

it feels that

they move

from

being

working with people

to being very authoritative and

Uh,

and then that,

that doesn't sit well because I'm saying if you're treating them like this,

how could you be professing

to be working in so that you working around

joint decision maker how when that's not happening with me,

um,

and I think

it's difficult because

You know,

the bills need to be paid but at the same time there's there's issues around

integrity

and and values and,

and

yeah,

and I think it's really hard sometimes so sometimes

people,

I think.

Walk away,

they put up with stuff that is not happy,

they're not happy with um.

And I think if

If we can move from

Comfortable spaces to actually being in

discomfort to talk about

what this looks like and feels like and why

we need to create level playing fields

rather than

um black and brown people having to fit into,

fit into

systems that are not

designed with them in mind,

you know,

they're they're an add on,

then I think we'll go some way to.

Change in the future,

improving,

and it can be done because

um there's uh another organisation that I work with,

for example,

that

I often cite as

really good example

of um

Doing anti-racist work,

um,

being really,

uh,

proactive in

the recruitment,

um,

from their board to their staff,

to including,

you know,

also in with their associates and,

and including,

um,

Black and brown people,

um,

so it can be done,

but it,

but I think it has to be very intentional.

I think people have to

be prepared to step out

of comfort zones and the status quo

and

It's not even radical,

but just do things that they're professing to say they do,

you know,

live by the values that they're putting up on websites and stuff,

you know,

we talk about being human,

when we talk about all voices,

you know,

what does all voices really look like and sound like?

Really great examples and

you,

you talked about anti-racist work.

Why

is it important?

What is the relationship to co-production and anti-racism work?

Um,

there's a big,

in my opinion,

there is a big

relationship between anti-racist work and co-production

because

co-production as I view it

is a strength-based approach.

It's also

trauma informed

and it's also saying

If we're gonna

design and deliver services,

we need to include

the people who have used,

who are using those services

to help us

shape,

design them,

right?

Now,

If black and brown people are not

included in those conversations in those decision making

processes,

and if they haven't got a seat at the table ashirley Chisholm describes it,

then the services are instinctly going to be

designed without

a robust anti-racist um

intention,

awareness,

and,

uh,

approach.

And

In your experience,

what are some,

what are the things

that

might support anti-racist approaches?

So I think um anti as opposed to

non-racist is proactive.

So it's not something that

is just written as a statement and stuck on the website,

but it's ongoing work,

so it's about looking at

um.

Well

Taking a snapshot of where people are and where we would like to be

and then just creating little steps of how to get there

and some of that is going to

involve

more learning some of that is going to

involve going

spaces that they probably

Um,

not that familiar or comfortable going,

um,

and

put into action,

um,

rather than just taking away or rather than just saying,

well,

I've gone to this

conference or

um we've got this statement,

you know,

how is it a living document?

How is it something that um

Staff users trusted people,

how is it,

how is it something that everybody involved in that organisation

can contribute to say this is a live document.

It's,

it involves people taking personal responsibility

for um

their

awareness and development around um

anti-racist approaches as well as an organisational

um responsibility.

Fast forward 10 years,

what would you like the future of co-production to feel and look like from

anti-racist lens?

So,

yeah,

um,

there's always that tension between.

The world as it is and all the unfairness and

inequalities and the world

that we'd like it to be,

right?

And so my

pick up food,

put your gibber jab,

come on.

I'm so sorry,

Isaac.

Um,

let me

put my phone on do not disturb.

OK.

Um,

Sorry,

um,

so yeah,

in 10 years' time,

so I think

my,

10 years vision is how I'd like the world to be,

but that's not a fixed state,

right?

what I,

what I would ideally like

um in terms of co-production from an

anti-racist lens is that

we are still talking about it,

but we're not talking about it in the sense of

um.

Starting,

we're talking about it from a sense of how do we build this,

how do we continue,

how do we

go deeper,

that it's just part and parcel of anybody who's doing any work

that

there's anti-racist

approach is just.

Uh,

interwoven,

it's,

it's the very fabric,

the very essence of the work that we're doing,

and that it's something that we don't

put into cruise mode or drive mode,

but it's something that we're

paying attention to with going back.

We're looking at,

OK,

where can we improve in this?

What do we need to fine tune on this?

How,

how can we develop this?

How can we learn from others?

How can we share our learning with others?

Absolutely.

One of the things that really struck me

when you said that there's gonna be discomfort and pain around this kind of a

work.

As human beings,

we're often

pain avoidant or we want to be in

spaces that are not discomfort.

The thing for us.

How do you see kind of creating,

like I'm wondering about the people that.

Aren't aware,

aren't

thinking about anti-racism,

aren't thinking about inclusive co-production,

how do we get them to enter the spaces of,

Pain and discomfort.

So I think when we

move to a risk averse or a pain averse.

Type of environment that's not real.

It's not sustainable,

right?

So if you,

you know,

I'm in the business of learning and development,

right,

and growth,

and

even in human growth,

there's something called growing pains,

right?

That's

part and parcel of,

of development as things

um change,

develop,

there's gonna be some pain involved.

But I think there's a difference

between pain and damage,

and I think that

um.

Uh,

also like,

you know,

there's a,

there's a model around the,

the learning.

Zone

versus so your comfort zone,

your learning zone,

then the panic zone,

and the panic zone to me is,

is damage,

but there is something about a discomfort when you move from your comfort zone

to your learning zone.

And so if we say,

I don't want to feel discomfort any time or I don't want to feel pain,

then

we're only ever going to stay in our comfort zone.

There's gonna be no growth,

there's going to be no development,

but I really want to make a distinction.

Between

the difference between pain and damage.

I'm not talking about damage,

you know.

Being black and brown

is it's been really painful and it's uh

a lot of trauma involved so you can't.

Talk about these issues without hearing the trauma,

um,

and the damage and the pain that has been done to people,

um.

And I think when we try to sanitise everything or

move away

from that,

then that's where we end up in situations where

today where the status quo is just maintained or

things are very nice,

but they're not progressive.

They're not

seeking to develop or seeking to grow.

I hope that answered the question.

Um,

I haven't got any more questions for you.

I'm wondering if you've got any thoughts of views you wanted to share with me.

Yeah,

um,

well,

first of all,

I think.

Thank you

for this conversation.

I think it's been long overdue.

Um,

I think,

um,

People have felt very comfortable

and.

With EDI for example,

and so taking their foot off the pedalized but they're not doing

much work,

you know,

um,

for George people some people woke up,

but

It seems like that's no longer in season,

that's no longer

an issue now,

so let's go back to how things were.

Now let's continue

um to growth,

let's continue to develop

because,

you know.

Um,

people are still,

um,

being oppressed

because of the colour of their skin.

You know,

things haven't suddenly

got better because it's no longer

front page of the news.

I mean,

you know.

There is oppression happening right now

and people uh

are saying one side is more deserving than the other side,

um,

but

really I think.

To to be open,

to be honest,

to invite people to spaces to say this works for me,

this doesn't work for me,

um,

or as some,

as a black or brown person,

these are the things I struggle with.

These are things I struggle with in these spaces.

Um,

I've got some ideas or

how can we as a group.

Think about how we can make this a space where

everybody can feel that they can bring their whole selves and that

we're not

biting our lips or pandering to white fragility

and you know,

we're frightened,

we're going to upset

um colleagues or some colleagues cry and then that takes away from the discussion

that's been had

because

suddenly all the tension is on their well-being rather

than the issue that is really at hand.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

Do you have any questions for me,

Tony?

Um,

yeah,

my,

my question is,

um,

this is a great piece of work.

I said the conversation is long overdue.

Um,

how is this going to be used?

What are we gonna do with it?

So we're gonna

pull together 12

initial stories to help with how we

actively look at.

The collective learning and knowledge that comes from the stories in the very um.

Part of kind of our approach at PVM

we use community reporting and

that gives the people that shared their story not only

voice and platform but it gives them

space to create

the solutions and focus the energy.

Um,

it's

a quite a,

uh,

you know,

a stepped

approach,

so we're gonna be inviting back to help us think about what we heard,

um,

how did it make us feel,

what are the things missing,

um.

Various kind of questions and where can we take this learning

to make that difference.

reason

To collect stories without those stories then creating the change we want to see.

But,

you know,

then those very people being the change makers.

So how is Tony,

how is whoever shares the story part of that change as well.

Um,

I think

for me.

It's also holding a mirror up to

the world of co-production,

um,

in a way that people might dip in and out of and use in their work.

Um,

and it's an important

moment in time,

and

I'm,

you know,

I'm,

I'm very

passionate about storytelling,

and I often talk about

the moments and times of our histories,

but they help us create our futures.

And hopefully this helps us create a,

a different future where that status quo

isn't

me going onto a call thinking,

there are no other people looking like me or me saying,

well,

hold on a second,

how does

a bunch of people with no experience of

racialized experience

design a whole service for like like racialized people

and.

Have people eye eye roll at me.

in a nutshell,

we're gonna continue to push and we're gonna

use this as part of anti uh racism journey

and we

growing,

um,

yeah.

That sounds

really exciting and um

thank you for including me on the journey

and um

yeah,

I look forward to

the development because uh yeah,

you're gonna be talking to other people and it'd be really interesting to hear

um other people's experiences as well because,

you know,

it's conversations I've had maybe with one or other,

but

It'd be really nice to

hear of people's experiences as well.

Thank you for your time.

If you're OK,

I'll stop the recording there,

um.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

08/01/2025