Not Another Co-Pro Project Reflective Interview

OK, Pete. So can you tell me what has been your experience of the not another co-production project so far? In most, um, stand out thing that I've observed is how human our own gatherings are. So I remember distinctly when we first met in s meeting house back in 2021. And there was such an energy in that room

So many. It was a nervous energy. Really? So many thought we saw What shall I say? There was so much trepidation, almost Strad fear, I suspect, as it was the first time in over a year that many, many people have been out actually left those where they live and I met with others in person

That's the number one observation for working with another co production project. For me, outside of just going to an awful has been so important realising that you're not on your own with your ideas about working with others, there's other folk out there with equally good ideas, if not even better working in their everyday lives. Our proud are non working

I mentioned it earlier before he arrived that Oh, it's not new to me. This concept of co production it's I've been doing it for decades, and it's just perfectly natural, so I don't really actually think about it anymore. I just do it

I never actually mentioned before that we are doing co production. I don't go there without, um, remit at all. It's just about being a human, interact with others and learning from others

And I've done that. Whilst I've been on this particular project with many thoughts into what they've had to say, listen to what they're doing, what they intend to do. So I learn in North Korea, well, the number one thing is human through and through what has been the one of the key things you would say that you have learned then in this process, I've been doing it all long

Yeah, it's certainly not new to me. That's a key message to me. It's not new to me

I realise it's very new to many, all those many individuals and certainly to many organisations. It's as if it's fallen out. Its guy, almost

It's not new to them, something almost alien up to me. No, no, this is I'm looking to say Oh, but it is. It's the truth

It is to me and I just find it so natural and I struggle and I'm honest and truthful, um, with others finding it so new. And I think I can't see it. It's so obvious

But clearly it's not obvious to everyone, Certainly not to some big organisations. Do you think then? Because you find it quite easy and natural and it comes, you know, quite comfortably to you. Do you think you're in a position to then help other people that probably don't find it as easier do you know and guide them and lead them a little bit bold? I'd hope that I'd do it purely by example, but not by telling for this is what it should do

I'd hope that just being me, Miss Anne and I the natural person I am that they pick up on it. That would be my hope, my dreams, my aspirations. Is there something deeper that, like takes place when a person learns by example as opposed to learn from, you know, um, being being told or being instructed, Do you think it like it? Do you think it gives them a greater kind of, um, understanding to actually witness it, I lose

Or in that I learned as a child the difference in teaching and learning. I can teach folk at any level you want, but it's there they have to learn. So I'd want them to learn from my example which I think is the best form of changing

So most of the by example. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I really, really get that. Um do you think that like there are a lot of people that are willing to learn about coal production Have you found that there's an energy to learn about it? Or do you think that there's just kind of, like a bit of a buzz around it? But then there's not really a commitment to it

My experience has been there's two levels of it. Two distinct groups. One is individuals

Definitely well enjoy. Definitely Once a while, yeah, Organisations, corporations not nearly so reason being probably most likely, they're reluctant to relinquish power. All organisations, all institutions, are based on the power structure and co-production by definition challenges that and there's a lot of resistance to it

That's my experience. Do you think that there's a way we can overcome that you know those those that, um, that support coal production. Do you think that there's a way to kind of to kind of, um, challenge that power or try to make people a little bit more comfortable in relinquishing some of that again? This was about two examples

The best that I'm aware of rather than tell them what they should and shouldn't do, give them good examples of work or production has worked, and everyone's been a winner. There's been very few losers, if any, and then get them to see by working cord productively. I think we could actually do our jobs better

We could please more folk. We could be more efficient, could be more effective if you can give good examples that are not so big if. But if you can give good examples that are, I believe personally, that's the best approach there is

So you think that like when it comes to coal production, it's much better for people to be involved in it and to be told about it absolutely 100%. Why is that? Because severely agent how it goes? Don't do as I do, but do as I say and far too often we've all been subject to that. I've never been a fan of it

I'm not a fan of it, and I'll never be a fan of it. I know, I know. Let's all do the same together

And so that's where co-production, but definitely So do you think that co production then has a greater element of kind of teamwork and camaraderie than, like the typical structures that have existed? You know, in a hierarchical sense? Most definitely. What was it that made you get involved with coal production? Pete. Initially, I think just being me, the person I am is and just a naturally copro productive resents power for power's sake

I've always thought that it's, uh, a reflection of Ananda. Um, inadequacy. Really

People who exercise power generally do it because they have. They believe they have to be seen to do it and ensures a lack of confidence ensures to mine on personal being. That I am

I see as a weakness rather than a strength. Is that so when you're talking like that, do you mean specifically like abuses of power and things like that in particular, because with great power comes great responsibility we all will see great power. And we have our lives

How many will see responsibility that goes hand in hand with it, I'd suggest for you. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, they say that power corrupts, don't they? Yeah

I've definitely heard that one before, Pete. I've definitely heard that one. But is there not instances where power is necessary? Power is always necessary, but with responsibility

And that is not often the case. Very rarely his power and join the responsibility that it demands. That's where the problem lies

So if there was one thing that you could address in coal production like you, you could use coal production to address. Would it be the power element? Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah

I'm not saying that's all I do, but that's definitely one. It's a major. Probably the major, right

OK. Do you think this is not another coal production project has given you the chance to explore some of that stuff? I'm only some truth, but no, I don't. Um I love and hope that it will genuinely I do

I do love and what we do. Well, well, based on when we started and where I am today I would say no. No

And why is that? Do you think? Think it's a case of to bring that about your daughter in the right place at the right time? And I don't believe I've been in the right place on the right time? That's not to say I won't be. But, um, I would say Not with that I qualify or not that in relation to why I'm involved in this specific project. I am normal hospital outside of this, going back to what I've been doing now for two decades or more

How bad? Plenty of opportunity with local governments, with NHS national level and even an international level last week, um, regionally, but plenty of opportunities to challenge power to influence work. But last outside of this specific project, you understand? That's just me who I am in what I do. So there's a bit of a conflict there, I have to admit, and what's the difference? Then why do you think that is? Why do you think that it's been, you know, um, you've not had that opportunity in the same respect in this? Do you think there's been a different set of people in the room a different kind of agenda, a different, a different purpose

It's been different people. It's a definitely a different agenda and how he was. And it's just not been in the right place the right time

OK, I still live in Well, we had the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time. And if I don't not what I can do that is it OK? So if you was in the right place at the right time, what would be your desired result? So you had to realise, Where are they going wrong and to change their approach and think, Hm. There's gotta be a better way

And he's shown as a so let's have a go at it. Do you know if you do, you know, when you correct people, do they often get defensive? Do you know, if you try and like, do they often think of you to tell me? Do you know? Because you're saying like where they'll listen to me and they'll think actually, he's telling me something that's right here. He's you know, we're doing it wrong and stuff like that

If you tell someone that they're doing it wrong? What's the response usually? Oh, if you tell someone who really about nine times out of 10, they become defensive and that's why we were impossible will always try not to care. Or try not to tell him and by using good examples, but then draw their own conclusion by me telling them that I realise, hm, that's a better road that he's just described than what we do. And then Noah's been offended

There's no apologies to be made. I, um I've lots of I That's the one Exactly she is, and 11 is, police said. Soon this man did, and then more globally

There's a line that says you can never win an argument When you win an argument always gets hurt, so he didn't actually win. So I try my best to avoid those situations. I genuinely do, and I'm hard try my best to avoid time for what they don't know much sooner

Shown a great example of something that's worked some of that probably they don't do, and they'll learn from that rather than me telling them you've done it wrong, but then come to that conclusion. Let them go away and think about it. What I try to do sounds like some absolute pills of wisdom that, you know, like they say, don't they? If you win, win the argument, lose the person do, you know, lose lose, lose the friendship, lose the relationship, you know? Yeah

So, like, for me, right, I one thing that I want to ask you is like, as opposed to, like, an us and them. Do you think because I'm thinking of the term co production like, uh, um, you know, because you're saying about, you know, people listening and stuff like that. Do you think co production as opposed to just listening? Do you think coal production works better when you're actually working on something together? Do you know? Because, like, for me, that's what it means to co produce Something means to to work on something and to to produce something together, don't it? Um So there's no question it does 100%

It does indeed. Yeah. And working together, you realise, And in different people, different spheres Within any organisation, they have different strengths

Now, in different strands, it doesn't necessarily mean they have different powers. They have different strengths. They two different things and realising those strengths and utilising those strengths to get the best result is what Co-production is all about

Yeah, yeah, and I mean, what do you think? What do you think happens when you bring them strengths together? Then you get as soon as you don't be aware of someone else. No, carry on. That's amazing

That really very difficult. Not impossible. But it's very difficult

And it's generally therefore resistance to change and re reluctance to relinquish power. That's what generally starts in. Do you think that, like diversity, makes us stronger then because you're saying like that some of our parts is greater and we all have different strengths and stuff like that and are too often organisations want everyone to be exactly the same

Yeah, and treat everyone in exactly the same moment our proper, genuinely struggling with that. And there's a good reason for it, if that's what you want. And that's what you believe in, then, by definition, on every person involved, to be the same as every other person and, well, there you go

I don't need to say more. Do I really other than it's never going to happen everyone is an individual. Every living creature on this planet is individual

Every is that webs is individual and far too often we repeatedly we've all got to be the same. And we all be treated the same. It starts at school, in the class and he carries on to the adult life

You're working experiences. I never believed in it. I don't believe in it

I never believed in it. Do you think we should change the school programme like this? The way that schools run and operate And you know, like this kind of conformity thing that they have going on where you're all gonna you're all gonna function this certain way you're all gonna do things a certain way, Do you? Do you think that it, like, limits people's kind of individual expression and, you know, ability to kind of adapt and grow to suit their own strengths and passions and things? Um, it's it makes that one because we have certain constraints in school without our certain constraints in society what we do. But at the same time, within that constraint, who was running the show was in power for the best experience

Who was responsible for others, that's even better for it. They should recognise that everyone's an individual and find out what their strengths and what their weaknesses are, utilise their strengths and help them with the weaknesses. That's what schools should be doing

That's what colleges universities should be doing. That's what employers should be doing. And I'm never gonna say it's easy because it's not

But it is possible it is entirely possible. If it's something you believe in, you gotta believe in it to do it.