Keymn Talks About Co-Production

Yeah So first of all, can I get you to introduce yourself? Yeah, hi, my name's Ken Wing. um, I've got lived experience of being a carer, um, and I'm a lived experience facilitator and associate. What does co-production mean to you, Kim? Um, coproduction to me means working in equal partnership. With people, organisations, um, coming together

Leaders, um, people in communities being on an equal footing, um, and being, and working on a solution to problems together. And how have you experienced co-production as a black woman? Um, I think it's been very interesting. I think in my latter, um, my latter experiences of co-production, it's always challenging

Um, but I think with the black, um, Lives Matter movement, I think a lot came out of that. So it, it, it shone a light on, you know, all the, um, sys, um, all, all the kind of racism that comes out in the workplace. On a daily basis for people, um

And Just Yeah. It's Yeah, it's, it's what you do on it, it, it affects you in your everyday life. You can walk outside and somebody can say something to you, what are you doing here? Kind of thing

And that's still happening today. Um, and, um, in terms of my experience, um, I always try to teach my people about my, my My community about lived experience and about co-production, so they have all the knowledge if they go into any healthcare settings. And things, they know what to say because what, what's actually happened is I've had a lot of family members actually

Um, you know, lose their life in a healthcare setting, and it could have been avoided. And this is since, you know, we've learned nothing since the pandemic. It's since the pandemic kind of thing

Um, when, you know, when you've spoken, people don't realise sometimes that you're black, and then when they see you, they're like, Oh, OK, or they're not expecting it, and you see those expressions. I think people are not. When it comes to um co-production and um EDI equality, diversity and inclusion, I think some people are scared to talk about it in organisations, and it'll be the wrong people talking about it and heading it

Or the people with not the right skills. To know how to bring people together. So I think

The things that I hear about EDI now is what I hear a lot is. It's not about colour. It's not just about colour

Um, and, and, and I think that's literally shoving it to the bottom of the pile because the evidence is out there and people are hiding behind the evidence. So you, you, you literally feel that, well, what's the point of me actually saying anything? They know what I'm gonna say, but they want to talk about something different about EDI. But when I'm doing EDI, I talk about everybody

Whether they're disabled, physically disabled, whether it's about their colour, whether it's about their age, um, whatever groups they come from, it, it, we're, we're talking about that person as a whole, and I think people have got to get the solution to this is people need to get used to talking about all of that stuff and not just picking one thing to talk about. Get all the people in the room that are from those protected characteristics. Especially, get a group of those people in a room together, um, when you, when you're thinking about EDI don't just talk about what needs to be in place for those people

Mm. Really important points. Can I just offer a noticing, like, like you were really heavily thinking, and is there any like worries or concerns about sharing your experiences of racism? And co-production, like, to, to, how to, cos I think

There might be, like I'm, I'm just putting it out there, I think that uh other people have said it and I've really got you in that moment of like, you were really thinking about your words. Why do you think it's. Like what, what's going on for you in terms of sharing your experience? OK

So I think in certain settings, people don't wanna hear it, and I think it's because they don't know what to do. Um, not that they're sick of hearing it, it's because they're not, they just, they haven't got that experience of knowing what it's like, so they think that they can't have a say about it for me. I feel people don't take it seriously enough, because it's such a hard subject to um talk about

People shy away from that and want to do the easy quick wing, tick box things, whereas, If I, you know, I won't go for certain roles because I know, you know, your name, or how it's spelled or something, people will know. That the kind of where you come from, so I'm very cautious on where I wanna work and who I wanna work with. Um, and

Being a black woman, you just. Having to teach your own children at home that this is what life is, but you go to work and people think, oh we're all normal, we're all equal. It's never ever, I, I, I, I don't know anywhere I've been where it's felt equal apart from

A few occasions that I can point out, and I don't want to mention names, but working with other people from other backgrounds and other ethnicities, and there's about 3 times, Since I've been involved in co-production and since I've been a carer, which has been 23 years, that I can point out I've really worked in equal partnership with these people that have actually become friends and great work colleagues and mentors. And I assume they are. Other people with racialized identities

Um, no. Made a big assumption there, didn't I? Yeah, there's 2, but 1 not. And I've done my best work with this person, I think, and created a lot of great things

And what characteristics or like, what do they bring? That is different. It's like we've heard about lots of negative stuff from lots of people and lots of opportunity into positive, you know, like, so what does this person, or, you know, what, what makes kind of like working in that way different? OK, so I think working in that way has been different because these people work at senior levels and they're our allies and our supporters in there's not much representation. At senior levels of um people from black um

The Afro and Caribbean black um. Groups actually. At senior level, so I find it really hard to find somebody that I can really look up to that's at a high level because they haven't got time to, you know, they're on their own, up there preaching, saying this is what it's like

They almost, you can see, don't feel comfortable touching on certain topics. I will say, I'm seeing a slight change, but I'm not seeing them bring other people from ethnic minorities with them when you're standing at national conferences. And things, and I judge a leader by

Who they're leading with, because some of the best leaders are the leaders that lead from behind. Can I ask you about. You, I'm gonna start off with you being involved in co-production, um, not facilitating you as someone with lived experience of caring, someone of the health and care systems

But when you've been involved in co-production, how does race and racism manifest itself? So like, how does it, how do you know it? Yeah. So, you know, I always talk about strategic co-production. If you go to a boardroom, um, there's not

Many black people in the boardroom, um. You try, when you're going to certain meetings, you try to carry yourself a little bit better, um, and you have to know what you can say and what you can't say. Um, when you see another black person in the room around the boardroom, sometimes they don't wanna speak to you or even acknowledge you, cause they're really uncomfortable on what you might say

Um, uh, you know, co-production's messy and we say what we need to say. But, um, often at a senior level, there's no. Processes for accountability, um, when people from, um, ethnic minorities that are in junior levels, they're not taken seriously, they feel not heard, um, and you hear this countlessly, not just with the work that we do, but with, you know, I've got a big family, working in healthcare, nurses and things like that, not spoken to correctly, not for just for no reason

You know, and as I said, I've got family that have passed away, um, and did not want to go to hospital because they're like, we don't want to go to hospital because they literally feel like they, if I go to hospital, I'm not gonna come back out. And there's that stuff around. Everyday racism, plus then you're going, OK, so my head has just exploded

Um, co-production is, people say it's like, there's some values that underpin it. And one of those values is about being inclusive, but how inclusive do you think co-production is generally? Look around and see how many inclusive um national groups you've got. You'll have, how many people from, um, How many people that are Polish, how many people that are black, how many people that are Asian, um, how many gypsy travellers do you have, um, how many, you know

You know how many, you know. You, there's not many from all the groups that we talk about, you've just got to walk into the room and you can see that that that there's not many. But it's not just that, it's about how many are from actually deprived areas

As well as That there's people that can articulate themselves very well, but how many are from deprived areas that are looked on, even if you're from a. A deprived area and you're not saying the right words and the right lingo. The people that we're actually trying to get to are not the ones that we invest time in to develop them so they understand what are the problems in healthcare, why they should be involved in co-production, how it's so important that they have a say and have a voice in what goes and for themselves and for their families, how that, how them having that knowledge takes the pressure off

NHS system and social care system, but people understanding what is personalised care, what is personalization, you know. People are scared to go out into communities, you know, and. Build their knowledge and their skills and to hand over power because they're scared

Of beenpo they they they, it's almost like. We have to stay Stay in your place, kind of thing. And how much of that do you think is? As a result of um

I suppose colonialism, like, you know, how much of it is rooted in history? And do people talk about like where some of this stuff comes from? No, no, they don't, they don't want to. They think that you're not gonna touch on it. So, um, I think when you do touch on it, you don't get anywhere

Because you feel not listened to and not taken seriously, cause it really hurts, and people say, well, that's in the past and that wasn't me. But I know behind closed doors, we come home and. You know, I have to talk about it with my children, OK? Cause if we, we live with the minority where we live, yeah? Um, so, sorry, what was the question, Isaac, sorry? How much of this is rooted to colonialism, like, like, do people talk about, you know, like

Are people just saying talking about ETI? or are they really trying to understand some of the stuff that has brought us here? I don't think, no, I don't, I think history doesn't matter. It wasn't us, it's not us, and we, or, or sometimes we feeling, people may feel too embarrassed to talk about it. And I think the solution to that is having to create a space or a programme where people can come together and, um, Meet and really talk about this stuff and, and, and rash it out and get to learn how do we work together

But before we work together, let's address the elephant in the room, what we're talking about, cause what we're talking about is people are talk talk about inequalities, um, in this, in that. Black people are always gonna be at the bottom of the line in whatever, if you, whatever subject, whatever con whatever condition you talk about. In the workplace, they're always gonna have the, the bottom jobs

Why? Let's talk about it. But everyone's saying it's a problem, we've got these initiatives, let's do this about it. But

Just talking about it and having a group meeting about it. Isn't gonna change what's isn't gonna change the fact that. Um, nothing's, it's not gonna make a difference

You, you, you see even, um, EDI groups or, you know, these groups that are national, and it's made up of senior black people and. How are they supporting the people below them? What have they produced cos it's supporting themselves, but how do you support the generations that are coming up that are gonna have to battle to get senior levels, um. And understand that history's always gonna hurt us, right? And That line between the everyday, the historical and

The real experiences like, and I'm just struck by like you know you said like family members have lost their lives, so why. Why do you continue to do co-production even when it's full of these kind of experiences? Um, because, you know my story, my mum's story. Um, It's quite funny because my journey of co-production has not been through

OK, I've had support work but it's been what I learned through my mom. How to manage people, how to speak to people, how to be in work in partnership with people and get what you need, what you want as quickly as possible, um. How to build relationships with people because I wanted my mum to get the best care possible for me to have my own life as well

And, having that and learnt from that has made me be able. What I've gone through could not be worse than what I've gone through being an unpaid carer. Um, so all this stuff that I do, I just want other people to have the information

So the same thing doesn't happen to them. And if I've got that information, I wanna share it. Why do I want to feel more power, have more power than them and not, and not

Save lives or have people in informed about what's going on if it's not right. Mhm. And that thing of like co production being the thing where actually co-production is a means to people getting better services, better support and but there's a real tangible result of co-production

Can I ask you? When you've centred race, like, have you got experiences of work that you've done where race has been centred and it's been really productive. Or like really positive. Um, I have got some examples of that, not, not many, because I think it's dropped down and forgotten about

But I have got that. I'm, I, I can't really talk about, well, I can. So I think you've done that work with me, Isaac, and that's working

With an organisation, and they wanted to talk about they're having problems with, you know, how do we get more ethnic minorities involved that, that they're all like white middle class people. And I think we've gone in and we've done some clinics, and we've addressed the history of how we got here first, and we've had tears, um, and we've had people feel ashamed and feel uncomfortable. But actually it's my best piece of work when we've come out of it together, and we feel like partners, like friends, and we've still got that problem, but they now feel more comfortable now in, Using the right words or coming to you and addressing you and thinking, I can speak to this about you

There's nothing that I can't speak to you about because we've probably heard the worst things that we can. So now we are comfortable, but you have to go through. People don't go through that

Uncomfortable stage from the very, very beginning. They don't know each other. They don't want to talk about it

They just want to say, What's the solution? OK, thank you. We'll go away, we'll sort it. They're gonna have to take time to work through it with people

And with that work, that's exactly what we've been doing over a 3 year period. There's a long term relational aspect to this. Absolutely

So I'm just wondering that, um, wanted to go back a bit, what are the consequences on you? Or people like you in terms of co-production having, like, so we talked about like racism but we haven't really talked about how it kind of shows up, so how does, how does it show up like and then how do you, Tackle it, like, what, how do people tackle it? Um, so like I said before, it's when you're talking about EDI and people saying, well, people just think it's about colour, um, and it's not, well, do we need to say that because that's a given, but actually don't drop colour to the bottom. I think it shows up in people's expressions. If you're black, you know, if people are not taking you seriously

So if you're on a conference, if you're online, if you're speaking, you can see the rolling of the eyes, you can see people's mannerisms, you can see the knowledge of, you can, you know, when people have worked with people from different ethnic minorities because of how inclusive they are when you come to a meeting. They're understanding and what they know and how they How they actually show off. And what I've been, like, so when we're talking about like experiences, so what kind of experiences have you had particularly, like, have they? I can

Yeah. Yeah, so, um, a big institution that I worked for, probably the biggest one in Europe, um, on my first day, um, I was literally, somebody opened the door for me and I was called a coon. Um, um

Um, I've had when I've been in a meeting and we've been doing some research and somebody said it's like finding a *** in the haystack. Um, and you're somebody with lived experience, sitting there, and, uh, my regret is I don't, I haven't come back and I didn't say anything. Um, And that's been my biggest regret because you're the only one sitting there and you're like, well, how do I handle this? Was it safe at that time to say anything? You never feel safe when you're the only one sitting there

There's no, when you're the only black person in the room and we're talking about this stuff, it's not, it's never safe. And if these things are showing up in co-production spaces. And we need to have these different conversations, like how would you like, so Kim, I'm gonna give you all the power to create this space where we have these conversations

What does it feel and look like? What's the solution to this? Um, I think the solution to this is I think I've said it already, it's about. Better community engagement. I think, you know, in co-production, and I talk about strategic co-production

And it shouldn't be bottom up, or it shouldn't be just be top down, it should be a meeting of minds together. There's something about. I would just like to dismantle where all the power is

Go into a community and say, I'm gonna give you this. And this is, you've got to spend it on, come up with some initiatives on health. And social care and you can only spend it on those things

I'd love to do an experiment. And give them money and give the skills of leaders in that community to support people to to to understand how would they do it in this little village or in this little community that, um, we've not tried before but let's not manage it. you're gonna, you're gonna all like funny echoey

I don't know if it's there. Really, am I coming still? Yeah, uh. Yeah

Turn your mic on and off, see if that helps. Let's see. That

Um Oh, I wonder what's happened. Uh, keep on talking. Yes

Yeah, I think your internet might let me. Yeah, you can, is your internet showing? 4 bars. Yeah, um, so

Am I still? Yeah, do you wanna come in and come out because sometimes that helps. Yeah, right. Let me pull it

Like, um, like just give it to me warts and all, like. Some nice um bit that we might want to publicly share, like. Yeah

Tell me. What do you want me to tell you, Isaac? So we hope this report will really help us understand what is really happening in terms of racism. Like, what do we need to know, like what needs to be in this report? But we know it all, Isaac, it's the so what of it all? Yeah

Everybody is saying it and not being taken seriously. And we just so yes and many centuries we just go on and be. Seen as the bottom of the pile

And somebody has to be at the bottom of the pile cos we can't get that power to be at the top, you know. It's the same initiatives. And over and over again

Um, Why? Because it's the same people in the room talking about how do we need to, how do we make, need to make things better for them. Is there a, how do we need to make things better for us? You know, I don't understand it, how do we do this, how do we make this better and how do we reach these people? Actually have them right next to you. Because they will have some solutions, they will have people that would advocate

And support that and actually. Um, policy, it sounds great, you read it. But what I always judge people by what they do

I can gurgitate policy, and it could sound amazing. So what? What, what are you doing about it? Who's got the guts to do anything about it? Nobody's got the guts to do about it. You've got the little mes and news trying to talk about it

But people just like, yeah. Rolling their eyes or. Oh, I'm really sorry about that

Don't be sorry. Just change things for me because I don't want this to happen to my children, because part of my job. Is to build my children

So they do not have to rely on the healthcare system or the social care system, yeah. Keep them as healthy as possible, um. Education, it, it starts in the schools

Isaac, even in the schools, if your children are performing very well, people will be, oh. He's performing very well and he's doing very well because what about the statistics? The statistics are not good for us in education, in health, in social care, in, in the workplace, you name it. Uh, the, the, the, the statistics for everybody, you know, maternity

It's all there. Um, OK, right, so we've got these statistics. In your opinion, why is it not good for us? Why is it not good for a statistics or or or the reality like, so we've got a statistic we know like, yeah, so what me well like how are we not having these experiences that are good? Because people have got perceptions of how black people are

They think we're aggressive because of the way we talk, so they don't want to deal with it, they don't wanna hear with it. They think we're moaning. If we're in pain, they don't believe we're actually in pain

Um, there's a way of, of, um, talking to us and, uh, uh, culturally and understanding our culture needs. Um, to understand what we actually need, for example, um. Well, my, my, my mom, she needs creaming every day with her skin

We've got black skin with cream every day. The people don't think of that when they come into care and they're looking after a black person and they're not from that community. Um, there's different things about, you know, take your shoes off when you come in the house and things like that, and carers are not allowed to take the shoes off and things like that

But it's a cultural, a cultural thing that happens. Um, It's easier to ignore it, that's what it is, Isaac. It's so much easier to ignore it because it's such a big problem

Right. And you, you talked about the responsibility to ensure your children don't have it, and is that why you still bring. The issue, what is that why you still challenge because like I've never heard you silent, I always hear you saying, well, what about diversity, what about in in making sure there's more voice

But doing that in a space that is trying to ignore it. Yeah, I, I think I've just got hope that somebody's gonna listen. Just like I found my mentors

They listened and they understand, and they've got me to this place where I am. So it gives me hope. And I see the passion in the people that I want to do it

I've got some great leaders around me that I learn from every day, and they're black, white, and Asian, um, And I embrace them because they, they, they give me shared learning, and I'm learning a lot from them, and I, I, I try and replicate what they do, but make it make sense to me and the people that I, I want to involve and work with. I think as black people, we're very, can be very feel at times. We already know that we're not gonna be listened to, so I think just starting from what's the point of me saying anything cause I could get onto the phone to 5 of my friends today and they'll tell me, well this happened and this happened, and I know it's because I'm black, yeah

I will sit there and I know what's happening and night out and because about but. Can you say that when people come out and you're talking in certain environments, you say that and it takes away from the work that you're trying to do. Anyway, if you bring it up

And do you get back invited back if you say those kind of things? Do I get invited back? To the, to the people that really want to make a change, yes. Um, and I can really see the difference now, since I've been doing a project that I told you about, I can really see the difference of people that are hanging on there, and it's gone over years that they've carried on the project. To There's people that are like, yes, I'm really excited and they're starting it, and then there's people that they only want it to be tokenistic, so they'll only need you for this and they'll only need you for that, and they'll go away and then they'll come back again

And you talked about these difficult conversations. Like, how do we have difficult conversations if we hold the least amount of power? Like, what role do you see, like, our white peers, what white people in this kind of trying to be inclusive? Uh, OK. They need something from us because they've got to cater for us in these roles, OK? They need us

They're not gonna understand it if they're not doing it with us. I think, um, I think it should be part of their roles that they I think it should be written in policy that they're physically doing something about not just engaging, but literally working alongside people from ethnic minorities and be that be visible, um. Not just co-presenting, but really doing a piece of work together and just building those relationships and reaching out to more of the communities and charities that are, that know how to do this already

Give them a bulk, you know, commission differently, commission differently, not commissioning the same stuff to the same people. You're not gonna see changes. What does anti-racism mean to you? Nothing It doesn't mean anything to me because of what I experience

On a regular basis, it's like. Being on the other end of racism and having black skin. Um, You know, you get, you know, you're a minority, something's gonna be said somewhere

The anti-racism. And um, you know, people might not agree with me, but it's just a word. It's not, it's, it's a word that I don't really use, Isaac

Anti this anti that. It should be pro this, pro that. Yeah

And and what would do a future. Of co-production and like what's your vision for the future of co-production? I think you just need to see a lot more. I look at the government And uh And institutes like that and I just think

There's not anybody that I relate to there until. We see more diversity, um, and I'm not talking about. More black presenters on the TV and that cos that's like really tokenistic, how long do they stick around for? I'm talking about

See Black people talking for black people and being radical. Yeah. Be really like, yes, let's, we're gonna do something different

What should that be? Come on people, let's get together. It's been done in pockets in different organisations to make organisations feel better themselves, to say that they've done it. What's not changing what's radical

It shouldn't actually be radical, it should just be the norm, but. But what would be, what's radical? This is it. I think it's the it's the norm that should be radical for me, what would be radical is

Somebody saying, somebody in power now saying, I'm fed up of this, I'm I'm really gonna do something about this and name what they're gonna do and just get on and do it without thinking, who do I need to check in with to make sure this is politically correct, whatever. We know the facts of what happens in deprived areas. It's mostly black

Um, you know, black boys, you know, gun crime, knife crime. Oh, you know, you know, I've lost somebody in my family from knife crime and, you know, everyone's like, Oh, it's from the county lines. Actually, no, the paper's put it in, it's in the county lines

You know, there, there, there should be radical rules for the papers to not. It it destroys a family's already destroyed when you lose the life of a young person, and then you're, you're telling stories and relating it to drugs and things like that. It's, it, it's really upsetting and it's heartbreaking, and we need people

I don't know who they are, cos I don't, I can't see who they are at the moment, but you and I are part of that. Starting to speak up and say, do you know what, you've experimented on us for long enough, we're not having this, no way. So Anything else you wanted to add? I've got so much to add and I just don't think

It's a way of life, it's a way of living. And you, as a black person, you're gonna have that extra protection. You've got to walk around with extra gear on

Um, when you go to work, no matter what your role is? You always feel that people are looking down on you no matter what. But I think to lift, I, I mean, I just love being around my family, my friends, we're diverse. We love being around each other

I'm really good friends with my neighbours and things, and I live in a great community. And I think that if you could put the money straight into the communities and stop paying people X amount to do these bonuses for that, da da da da, put the money, experiment and see what they'd actually do with it. Mm, power to power to the people, yeah, love it

Mm. Yeah, thanks, Ken, I really appreciate our conversation. Um, so we've had two conversations, um, because of like tech issues

I haven't got any more questions for you. Do you have any for me? No, I haven't. I don't feel like I've got to the crux of it

Because I'm Sometimes you're sick of talking about it, Isaac, and you just wanna be in places to do it and improve it, and I think I'm at that stage where I'm just like. I see it being brushed under the carpet, so I'm feeling a bit deflated and a bit like, I'm showing up, but so what? Yeah. So that's, that's for me that you're getting right now is

But that's really hard. So my offering back to you, um, and I heard Rachel's voice in my head about offerings there, is that if it would be easy for you to capture some of that just by writing something, we can include that. Like, so we've got, like, this story with, we can, like, we can come back, we can do, we'll, and I think this is hard and painful work, isn't it? Conversations like this are

Just thinking like, oh God, like, you know, people lose their lives, we. Yeah. That we sit in

You, you, you, you have to have a hard heart when you hear it. A hard heart. Because it's friends and family ring you, well, guess what, they didn't feed her, they didn't do this to her, they didn't wash her while they while they were in hospital and things like that

What, why did you not wash her, but you washed somebody else of another colour. When she fell out the bed and hit her head and had another stroke, why didn't you tell the family the truth? Mm. Do People looked down on us and think we're stupid, Isaac

Mhm. And is that who do you speak up to? The, the, the, the complaints process, yeah. In everything is just prolonged that everybody forgets about it, because really the complaints process is in-house, it's not external, so once it's in house, they're never gonna make a difference on how people receive health and care

Mhm. And it goes back to the reason why you do co-production and that thing that really resonated around accountability. There has to be accountability for this work

Yeah, there has to be accountability. And I think us as black, probably why we do it, because we feel accountable to our community, to say that we're doing something different and they can see us doing something different. But if people want to learn about it, how are we gonna make them, how are we gonna make people that are coming in positions accountable for really doing something about this apart from talking about it? Only the communities that they serve can make them accountable, but

Are they even in contact with them, in touching distance with them? No, they're not. And I just think that. Co-production is a way

Is it a really productive way of breaking down those barriers and bringing people into environments that they're not used to? Mm. Something about if you're not present, you're not seen, right? Absolutely. Yeah

So thought provoking, I just love talking to you. So thank you, cos I know that time is against us. If we wanna come back and have another conversation, that's fine, if you wanna write stuff down

Are you happy for me to stop the recording there? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Please stop.