Epiphany shares 2 examples of coproduction in housing and the impact that is has had. Also reflects on the conditions needed for good coprodction! 

Well, hi. My name's epiphany. And currently I work for Connect Housing, which is a northern housing association based around Kirkley. Colder Dale Wakefield and Leeds Small

Well, I'd say a small organisation with a stock of about 3.5 1000 properties. But we also do a lot of dispersed support

Um, we run a a women's refuge. We've got various other homeless hostel provisions, so sort of quiet as well as general needs and leasehold. So quite a dispersed organisation

Um, and so one of my key roles there is, um we are wanting to move much more to a a organisation where decisions are made by residents and people accessing services. And one of my sort of tasks is to roll out, um, the understanding of coproduction, um, and create a community of practise and explore how far we can go with that. Really? Um, so really pleased to be sort of contributing to any resources that are going to be helping people on a similar journey out there

Um, so we're But I wanted to talk to you about two specific examples. Would that be a good idea? Yeah. So one of the examples actually um is with a previous housing association, probably pretty much opposite end of the spectrum to where I am now in size

It was 18,000 properties, um, and General needs sheltered housing, but also had extra care. And what I'd like like to talk to you about is how, um and it links back to sort of a role I had in commissioning How, actually, um, challenging, uh, a formal procurement process and exploring and experimenting with co-production actually brought out about a much better result for everybody involved. And so the particular example was catering in our extra care scheme

So under the sort of formal governance rules that needed to be re tendered using a a formal procurement process. But I was I was aware that, you know, generally people were quite happy with that provider. We didn't have any, um, issues with them from a sort of managing the contract point of view

Um, so I wanted to sort of not necessarily took the baby out with the bathwater, especially since, um, it was those human relationships that were really important in that extra care scheme. Although people would have been but didn't want to put that at risk. Really? So we carried out, um, a number of exercises, really, Just to find out what was important to people

And so we used a a range of tools, which was quite fun. We sort of got them to write people to write their I think, Oh, that's my door going. Do you want to pause? Pause

So it was a great opportunity to have a bit of fun, Really? And so we used some sort of dining themed sort of tools and exercises. So we asked people to write their ideal recipe for the perfect dining experience and got them to say What ingredients, you know, they put in there. We used, um, uh always and never approach as well

Um, which was really simple. Um, and also, we use the customer journey map, um, idea, but using sort of play people and toy cars and all sorts of things, Um, there was a core group within the extra care scheme that would come to pretty much everything that we organised. And I was very conscious of that

So to keep it really rigorous and representative, what we did was, um, we kept a a sort of roll call of everybody that come and then did like a funnelling exercise. And so we shared the same information with, um, people in written form. But we also then checked in when we got those back who was remaining and who hadn't contributed

Um, because obviously there were people with mobility problems, people who couldn't necessarily read the material for a variety of reasons, whether that was eyesight or reading capability. And so we made sure that they got a visit and were supported to contribute as well. Which meant, I think, apart from one person who said, I don't eat, I never intend to eat there

I don't feel like I can comment and we got pretty much everybody's views. Um, which I felt was quite important, given that it was, you know, commissioning and contract that we were looking at. But I think that's the principles of co-production, isn't it about making that effort and going to the people rather than expecting them to come to you? And so we actually found out some really interesting information that would not have been got through a procurement exercise of like, What's the cheapest, Um, and what came out was that although people loved the catering and loved the food, a lot of people didn't actually eat there because, um, they couldn't get the food to the table because they were using mobility, aids and, um couldn't actually carry it

Um, and it became a real barrier for them. And so they had been dining there, but couldn't anymore. And so through that we actually explored, um, the caterer said, Well, I I'll happily, um, do a dining service

You know, we'll we'll organise our staff so we can do that for the people that want it. Um, And they gave us. And then we went social care the care provider, and said, Well, could you do it? And what cost would that be? Um, and then share that with everybody and and gave them a choice

Um, of what route? We went down. Um, and it it was a great exercise, actually, because everybody said they wanted to stay with the same provider. They actually wanted a bigger dining hall

Um, because sometimes they came down and they couldn't find a seat. Um, which was great, because then you get the economies of scale and feeding more people and, you know, the whole element of being in an extra care scheme And that socialising so that fed into the planned works programme. And then yeah, and the waitress service

Then we sort of accommodated that with the new contract, all of which, I don't think we would necessarily have got through a formal pro procurement route. And, you know, the the approach that we take and we did some benchmarking of the costs that the current provider would do were giving us. So it, you know, for from the procurement side of things and satisfying the governance for the organisation

They were really happy. And they hadn't had to do a tinder exercise, so they were winning around. Um, so, yeah, I just encourage people to think, um, about you know, where you might use it, where it it seems not possible

And there's a great article out there called The Art of the Possible. I don't know if you've heard of it, Kat, but, um and that's around commissioning. Um, so, yeah, I should I talk about another example? Yes

Yeah, you can do I I had sort of things going through my head, but I think you kind of answered most of what I would have chipped in with there, um, in terms of the impact and the the difference that it made for people. Um, so, yeah, talk about the other one, and then I'll see if there's anything else that comes to mind, but fantastic. So the other one was probably opposite end of the scale, but, um, equally controversial

And anyone who works in housing will know about this. Um, and it's around, um, pet policy in a sheltered housing scheme. Um, so we got we got a great opportunity, Um, in that we, uh, transferred over to us from another housing provider and sheltered housing scheme, which kind of gave us a chance to draw a line in the sand

Um, and straight away, it became obvious there is an issue with pets. Now, our pet policy. Hm

Mhm kind of says no pets, but this pet, the existing pet policy we have says no pets. However, there were people with a you know, numerous dogs, cats, all sorts of things, living in this scheme. So there was no way that as a new provider, we wanted to start off our relationship with people saying, Well, our way at all, and this is you're with us and those are the rules that apply

So took the opportunity to do another co-production activity where we, um, had a a very open a set of questions that we asked people. And again, it was that funnelling effect where we had email addresses. We sent out a digital, um, with the open questions and then phoned back where to explore more

Um, and where we didn't have digital addresses. We did a postal survey and got a I think about over 50% return probably contentious. And everybody has a view

And because it and I think that's an important point for me sometimes oh, well, nobody is interested in consulting, you know us. We've consulted them and they're not interested. Well, it might be the way, but it also might be the topic

You know, it might be pretty low on people's priorities, And I guess, you know, at our return rate, it was a real you know, people were very, very annoyed about how some people were handling their pets. So, you know, there was a lot of voices to be heard And so we pulled all of that information together, which can really came up with a pretty sensible pet policy, which was anybody who's got pets at the moment, they'll be allowed to stay unless there's real issues with their behaviour. Anybody moving in would only be allowed, uh, you know, would have to apply for permission

Um, and there would be criteria It couldn't be a dangerous dog. Um, if there were any sort of issues with behaviour, then they'd be asked, you know, to rehome that pet, um and it it was just very sensible based on what people were telling us. And we were very explicit in the written document and thanked everybody for contributing

And now when we're dealing with that policy, it's not our policy that we're enforcing it It It's sort of a mutual agreement between everybody living there, which has made things easier. Really. Um, so yeah, that that that was another sort of really enjoyable exercise

Um, to do, um which is is yeah, brought about? It's much easier to sort of have a conversation with somebody around. The fact that this is, you know, you live in this community and this is what people have agreed and how to live together rather than a very draconian. We say you can't have one approach, so I don't know if you got any question around that

It's fascinating just listening to two examples because they are, as you say, like extremes in terms of scale of what you're, um, dealing with. Um, and yet it comes back to. What I'm hearing is it's coming back to really those relationships and those connections with people, um, and and and really giving them the space to influence things, actually, in ways that make sense to them, rather than the professionals or the people who are working that situation, making assumptions, um, about what's best for people based on whatever, Um, whether it be funding or procurement or, um, what they think is the best policy

Um, do you do you think in either or both of those examples there was an impact that went beyond just the those bits of work that you did? Um, do you think it changed the way people thought about how they could engage with people in other areas? Or is it? I think I personally got to know people a lot more so that I wasn't just a professional walking in there. I knew people by name. They knew me

We'd had a laugh together. Um, and it's the same. So that's the extra care example, I would say with the pet policy, Uh, that was during the pandemic

So it was my own necessity. A lot more remote. Um, I'm yeah, didn't get the same sort of build up of sort of friendship and relationship, really, which, you know, goes to show that it's worth putting the effort in to actually do things together

Um, I guess that's my learning from it. I think one of the best examples where I've seen the sort of ripple effect of things growing was when, um again in the sheltered housing scheme. And, um, we were experiencing a lot of negativity and tension and divi division, um, around people who were living with dementia there and sort of people people were saying, Oh, they shouldn't be allowed to live here

This isn't an old people's home, you know, I'm really worried, you know the danger to everybody. And, um, mhm we we counted that really by, um creating a dementia friendly community. So we did lots of training sessions, and we also worked with people, sort of the taxi drivers and the shops, Um, so that anybody moving in was living in a sort of small community where people sort of understood some of the challenges for people living with dementia, and what came from that was actually people came and said, Do you know the reason why I was so sort of hostile was because I was scared because I'm scared of that happening to me and I didn't They made it too real

And actually, now that I've done the dementia friends training, I feel less scared, more informed. And then I'd like to learn more about mental health generally. And so we then did actually do

We grew that side of things, and we did more training and got more links with partners around mental health, which I think, yeah, that was that was amazing where we could have gone down like a sort of yeah, taking a very different approach. But what happened was actually it, it meant that people were living in a much better we live. If they were living with dementia, had a better environment

People who were scared and worried, you know, their fears were addressed. And actually, we sort of opened up that whole conversation around mental health. Yeah, And again, it sounds It sounds similar in the sense that you've you've gone into that with a fairly open ended kind of, um, set of questions or line of inquiry

Um, and and I think that's that's, uh what what came across in that first example that you gave around the kind of catering and stuff as well, is it? Actually, it didn't sound to me like you had a tick box set of questions that you wanted to know about the quality of the food or what? It was said that you were talking much more about people's experience. Um, yeah, maybe what? They liked what they didn't like, how they why they did or didn't engage with it. Um, yeah, that feels like a very different approach to how it people might

I suppose traditionally, when people are reviewing something like that, they want to go in with a set of tick box questions. Yeah, we're just about to embark on another sort of exercise. Um, in the the place where we've done the pet policy

So we've we're having real problems recruiting to a vacant post there, and and so we're gonna go and sort of say, you know, really, if what is it that you want here and we're struggling to recruit? Have you got any suggestions? You know, almost get, you know, get them involved. What? And what is it? You know, we've been recruiting to the sort of existing job description, but actually, is that what you want? You've got an existing cleaner here, you know? Are the hours right? Let's just, you know, have a look at everything and then take it from there. Um, because we might be trying to bang our heads against the wall to recruit for something that they're not that bothered about

And they'd rather have the money in their pockets. So we'll see. Yeah, again Interesting, isn't it that there's an assumption there isn't that that you need to provide certain certain roles or jobs or whatever and actually even just going and having a conversation with people might send you off on a different track or at least help you to be able to recruit the right person or people to to do the to do the work

So rather than putting it in the too difficult box, go to talking to people and saying, Actually, we're struggling with this. Can you help? Yeah, It's a bit of a counter intuitive approach for a lot of people, but I can see that that would work. Um, and that's why I say it's a mindset, rather that, you know, because they're so

But I guess, um it comes very easy to me because that's I I didn't really go on any training or I was just like, Yeah, I was just very relieved when I started hearing about co production and thinking, Oh, yeah, I'm not weird. It's OK, yeah, Tell me a little bit more about that, then the whole mindset thing. What? What is your sort of belief or understanding of coproduction? In that sense? Well, um, for me, it's it's around that the fact that everybody is unique and I mean one of the best things around working in housing is you get to meet so many different people and so many different experiences and get your Yeah, your conscious and unconscious bias is sort of Yeah, pretty much ridicules every day and your assumptions challenge

So, yeah. Um, so starting from that standpoint, and actually, you know, I don't know more than anybody else, you know, um, when it comes down to providing a good service to them, Um and I think actually, there was a personal experience that I had That kind of made it even more poignant. So I took a couple of years out and went from being a team leader in a local authority to running a ski chalet as, like, a chalet host

And I can remember. And it was like, overnight I changed as a person when it was still me and people treated me so differently. And I can remember one woman asking me and, you know, probably genuinely trying to strike up a conversation coming from a lovely place, asking me if I skied

And I felt like saying, Well, I'm not here because I want to get better at cleaning toilets, you know? Why do you think I'm here? But it was just that, you know, So I never just because, uh, you know, people are in different pigeon holes, You know, I changed pigeon hole I was the same person, but people treated me very differently. And it just made me think that you know, you you should never do that because you lose out on so much. Um, so, yeah, um I guess that's it for me

You know, everybody has Yeah, it's great source of knowledge experience. Um, yeah. And so from that lens, then it's like that

Equality. And I touched on this. I did a presentation at a staff conference and I said, You know, let's be real, you know, the power dynamic

You know, we aren't all equal in that room, but what we can do is create a space where those differences of de you know, decision making, power, accountability. All of that kind of thing doesn't affect the ability to make a joint decision. So how? And that's something I'm very keen on about making sure people have got access to information that would get them to the same level to be an equal partner in that decision, Um and yeah, that with effort and commitment, you can have a chief chief executive with the same kind of knowledge about that particular decision as somebody who may be any difficulty if you the challenge is, you know, for you to explain it

So I guess that's my mindset. And and have you come across any barriers? Um, in in any of the examples that you've given? Yes. Loads, Um, and that particularly memorable

Uh, it's ripples, isn't it? You know, we're in housing. We're in a very regulated environment. So the regulations kind of define what know you can how many decisions you can delegate

But I think we always need to challenge ourselves. I'd love to move from. One example is we have to do this gas compliance check every year

And, oh, there's a whole industry within housing associations making that happen, and rightly so. I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, but there must be an easier way. You know, uh, residents in their homes, they get their cars taxed and m o and insured

You know, they're capable. They could get a gas check. Um, there must be an easier way

You know, where we get people to say I've done it and provide the certificate, and we mop up rather than having this whole industry behind it. Um, but yeah, I think you know organisational culture. Um, I definitely work places where it's been hard for me to operate like that

Um, leadership. Um, I think the internal politics as well. People power playing and that kind of thing, um, feeling threatened

Um, we are all people, um, and, you know, have our own insecurities. And some people get find a lot of strength from being that professional and and being the one in the room that is sort of in control, so, you know, Yeah. Um, yeah

There's always ways around things, and I guess as well it's recognising. You could get burnt out with it, couldn't you? But you know, any little step is in the right direction is an improvement. You've clearly, um, had the, uh you've you've not let the barriers stop you

You've just got on and done it anyway, because it made sense to you. Is that something that you would recommend or an approach that you would recommend to people in? If if something feels like the right thing to do, um, or or other caveats with that, I don't know. Well, don't commit professional suicide, obviously, because you've got to pay your mortgage

Um uh, but Yeah, that sort of reality check. And I would say, Don't focus on what you can't do, but what you can you know, and you can It's that sphere of influence, isn't it? You know, when I was a generic housing officer, I couldn't really influence very much, but I I one of my flat block, not my, uh, a block of flats was getting redecorated, and I thought I'd be nice if the people could choose the colour, you know, So I just Yeah, so that, you know, we co-produced painting their stairwell and, um, yeah, they people got to know each other through that. I had never met each other

And there were spinoffs, you know, So I wasn't doing sort of delegated budget making, But you know, it's what can you do rather than focusing on what you can't And sometimes you know, you're a square peg in a round hole, and it might be time to find where you fit a bit better.

Comments
CAPTCHA
This question is for testing whether or not you are a human visitor and to prevent automated spam submissions.