Tom and Lee talk about the value of coproduction and how supporting individuals to coproduce really makes a difference to the local offer particularly around the homeless challenges. Both really articulated the value of working together in a co-produced way to create a tangible outcome for community members!

Yes, please. No, I thank you for agreeing to take part in this. Um, you want to introduce yourselves? I'm my name's with, um 11 Cambridge. And, yeah, I've been part of it

Takes the city one of the charities set up here to deal with homelessness. I am Tom Talon. Um, I actually worked for the county council

Um, I'm responsible locally for are making a real adult matter approach, which may be aware of, um, and one of the meme approach. I guess key tenants is the value of CO production, Um, in designing local systems. So my involvement is to encourage co production at all levels

Within Came between Peterborough. Thank you. Thank you both for introduction

So I'm wondering if you could share with me an experience you have had of co production. So what have you done in co production? And what does it mean to you guys? Um, so, um uh huh. I guess our experience

Big question. Um, yeah. So I mean, I mentioned I was part of it, takes the city, and I was invited to attend some council meetings where they were discussing how to deal with homelessness by Robin Williams uh, he asked me to tag along because, uh, I've just been homeless

And, uh, I got to attend every single meeting. Whether it was a trustee meeting, whether it was co production groups dealing with work and all sorts of it was just really exciting to see how the system works and how they were trying to, um, uh, create a better system. And they really valued our opinions

You know, if they come up with a bad idea, you know, we could actually say, you know, through experience, you know, all this won't work. You know? You have you thought about this? This is why it won't work. It was really, really interesting

Okay, so I'll go with, um So we've We've had a small group of people with lived experience of multiple disadvantage meeting for two or three years. Now, um, you know, started off with one or two people. Um, and now it's, you know, we only get a dozen tweets, 15 people turning, you know, coming each month, different people each month

Because I can make it all the time. I think one of the key he he is one of the examples. I think has been really valuable is, um, came from some a few years ago, describing what had helped him to move away from multiple disadvantage homelessness, mental health issues, some some issues

And he described it, Um, and those ideas gradually formed into what has become locally now called the trusted person model, because he described how someone he trusted just one person who he could go to with anything, even if it wasn't her job to do so to speak would be able to get the outcome that he was looking for. And so, for me, that's really a good example, because it's something that has come from some describing their experiences and what worked and has been widened out so that it reaches other people. Um, I hear it's not being minded as far as we like, but it's a start

It's a star has also been, um, but began to be talked about in in contracts for housing related support services. So, um, I think I think partisan. The influence of the group's having so it's very much the agenda of the people who come rather than, um, we had to push back three um, last year or so on services who were coming to say, Could you come and tell us what you think about this? Proponents knew idea or programme

So no, not not of interest to us. We don't We don't want to know. Well, we can give you five minutes, perhaps, but actually, we want This is our programme that we would like to work on from people who experienced the services

Um, so you we need to take our agenda to get to them rather than their agenda coming to us. So I'm wondering, like if you could share with me what you think the value or impact of co production has been when it when it comes to maybe the building of our homeless pods, I think that was really integral. They really did

Listen, I love the idea of the homeless pods instead of hostels. I was always against hostels. I mean, they worked some some really do need and a full full attention

But I think attending these meetings and then making sure there weren't too many pots built together, they really listened. And because, uh, you know, if you put 40 addicts in one building, you know they are just going to thrive off each other. But you put five people with their own home, you know, it's just working better

So I was really? I think that part of co productions went really well. You ask the question again. I was just like I do, and I'll come back to you, if that's okay

Can I ask you like you've talked about, Um, what difference it kind of has had in terms of the service design. Um, So like, what? Uh, as co production, like in terms of your own life, is what kind of impact does co production had on you? Personally, I find it really rewarding that, you know, I can share my experiences and what what is wrong with the system? And then when some slight change happens, it's brilliant. You just know exactly

There is always going to be a next generation of homelessness. But, you know, at least they're not going to experience them. Sort of issues that like what you just said about the, you know, the guy mentioned, you know, that one person you could talk to, you know, having that implemented now it's going to reduce so much stress and you know, there's a lot of mental health in, uh to deal with homelessness

So, like, yeah, I just think it's really important. We didn't ask that question of the group a couple of months ago. And so there's there's a There's a great response, which I can send over if you want, if that would be helpful

Yeah, so can I go back to that question again that you just asked me? So I want to talk about what value do you think co production has or what impact it has in terms of the work you've been doing? And I'm not sure you can counter that. I've, um, sort of in my role, slightly taking time to embrace it. Um, not not for sort of fear or anything like that

Just more, You know, um, I've appreciated being recorded. I hope this is taken in the right way, but the amount the amount of time needs to be invested to do it to do it properly and well, And so, um, you know, there's always been a concern because I don't feel like I give it enough time at the moment. I would like to actually got we persuaded locally some resources to be allocated for this now

So there'll be some dedicated people to work. It hopefully experience when the work comes around the, um And But I sort of concluded, you know, through the trusted person working through the trauma, informed care work and so forth, we do that actually, co production should be the starting point. What the The endpoint

And actually, we should be investing everything, um, that, rather than doing a sort of a nice additional, extra so and so so valuable is actually then get services are, um, better meeting the needs of the people that they're designing to. So and, you know, if you want to still paints and pens in that position, you would be having less waste. You having better service, more efficient services, targeting the needs, less unhealthy people less better well being very difficult to quantify the value

But I think that's something aspects of it. Um, so, like so for a lot of question I've got would be around. So has your own kind of perceptions and behaviours changed as a way of, like co produced because of your co production

Um, my whole values changed the second become famous. You know, I grew up literally. It was like a big wake up now

But now I just say, I mean, I've really enjoyed being part of it. And, you know, they everything that we've done has improved the system, you know, the people that were involved with the website Street support dot net, which were launched in Cambridge in one home stay. You know that that's that's helped

That's got the public realising, you know, all the charities that do things. That's the rewarding bit that's a bit of enjoyed. A healthy

Do you think that you could have got there without including people who have lived experience? I didn't think they would have got the same decisions. Now I think, you know, heaven is all involved and there's a big dangerous. Like you said, it's not just one person, but I haven't really been involved in over the last year because of covid and that had never have problems

But the early days I said I attended everything and it was nice that they just took everything onboard. Systems have changed in Cambridge is a better place, and it's constantly improved into homelessness. You know, I hope it continues to continue distracted by my phone ringing and might be someone trying to tell me that they're outside, so I can sure power back

So you happy to continue Just having a bit of a chat? Yeah. You talked about kind of the work that you have been involved in. So, like in terms of kind of

You said it's like a lot of different people. So have there been any challenging bit to co production and sometimes maybe maybe the people in charge, not listening, You know, to certain people, you know, I'm quite articulate. People tend to listen to me, and I talked about, so I get a message free

But, you know, in the early days, there was a few issues with, you know, because we've had tracked with that people that attended co production and now they would never attended again. You know, I mean, uh, not everyone is still really enjoyed it. Yeah, the majority

The majority of people are being seen. So if you were going to, like, say to some, like if you're going to kind of share, would you recommend people go producing? Would you tell people that they should be producing. Yeah, and it doesn't just have to be with homelessness

It could be like those issues, because when you get a better understanding of what's going on from that person, you get a clearer picture. It's okay creating these ideas, but you need to know if it will work. And you can get that information from people that have had shared experience

It sounds obvious. Doesn't anybody say how loud? I can't believe people have been doing this for years. Can I come back on some of the challenges that Yeah

So I find hugely the challenges amount of time it takes to do anything. Um and, um, you know some of this stuff? Um, we've been wanting to implement the the machine wheels move so slowly. It's really difficult

And the other big challenges these to the sufficiently, um, feedback to the people who are contributing, what's what's happened so that, you see, it's worthwhile that the contributions that they made, um and, um, very much, you know, the language is really difficult because some of the stuff that's changed, um, you know, it's been quite significant. Um, if there are people in the group who are making contributions to services that are being commissioned. Now you know, these are multi million pound contract and part of that contract there

There are clauses in there that have been co produced, um, to win the contract as a big you know, I think that's quite big things or something, you know, from a group who people who are main homeless within the last two years to be doing. Um, but it actually sort of thing feeding back to everyone that this change has happened. It's quite it's quite it's a bit of a challenge

I find it's not just as easier. It's not just a single thing Well done. This has happened

Um, I think sort of celebration. It's got to be a clearer way of sending that message because I get emails and, you know, Okay, I may be a reason that some of the other guys stay just there on the phone from there, they were just He has got the other ways relaying that message and the other the other big challenge we find. I think you know what it is

Um, say ladies really is right. He's, um I guess you'd say further on your journey than a lot of people so actually trying to reach them. The people who are, you know, have very valuable contributions to give but aren't as far down the journey is something like the or some of the others is difficult because it doesn't require a real investment of time again time going to come back to that

So, like I've gone on a bit of a kind of journey, my mind about sort of. There's a real value for people in terms of producing. Clearly there's a system value in terms of getting the right contracts, getting it right the first time, and you talked about kind of needing to have sufficient time to kind of co produced

So I wondered about like and I'm getting a sense that it has co production has to be really personable and person sent like Person said that I would say that it will be different with each person and people might be at different points of their journey. Have you really like advice or top tips you would give people starting to co produce to kind of be able to do it better? Um, just be patient, You know, you gotta be patient. It's a slow journey to begin with, but the rewards will be, you know, worth it

You know, you can get it right the first time You're saving time, energy, money. You know, um you know, I've got one person I used to attend all the time. And it's because ages to get into the groups

And, you know, after a while, he was really valuable. So, like, patience is being key to it. If you're just starting out and to take on board what they're saying because you might not understand that you might be you know what? Their You know what they are trying to say? So I would say this sort of comes back to the trusted person thing again, Um, which we find it slowly underpinning a lot of our work at the moment

Um and, um, we need so I haven't gone through the journey. Uh, if I was to start again, the these things I would do, I would, And these things we hope to do going forward, um, ensure that every organisation in your sort of sector of your working on has a champion or, um um uh, I think another way. You know, within that organisation, who will say, Okay, we're going to try and reach everyone who would like to be involved with systems design and enable them to co produce

Now, we're going to do that, um, by ensuring that the person they trust has the information they need in order to reach them. So if, um, if the group is working on this subject, So we're shortly too involved in a bit of work, um, around why? People who become homeless have particularly poor outcomes. Um, And, um, what will be needed to do is have that subject because that's been decided by the group and then reach out using these champions and trusted people, too

Try and form a wider consensus. I suppose so. It's really trying to avoid the idea of consultation, you know, sending out a document for people to think about

But actually ah, I guess using their trusted person to help go through the work with them so we can reach individuals as well as a great groups that work everyone. I have real sense this is about personal relationships. Yeah, completely

So, um, a lot of times that I speak to people they might say there are certain groups of people are too difficult to co produce with. Such as, like people, mental health challenges, people, substance misuse or homeless people. Clearly, you've done it

Really? You've done it locally. Um, do you think, um, that kind of co production you do, you'll continue to do it. And what next for you? Later? I think we're going to do more of it

I think the the group of people it was called the co production group. And I guess it does what it says on the team. Um, but it's quite well known now across our patch, which is why we've had to knock people back, saying We're not going to come and act as a consultant group for your thing you're doing unless something that some of those two things we want to do um, so across the patch we got you know, there's quite a lot of I guess you call senior people or into it

So I mean, a couple of years ago, the police and crime Commissioner came to agree, and to understand what we were looking to do, to be fair, he did use it as a party political, but at least his, you know, the officials that came with him were listening and understanding what it was. And that's one reason why we've had local investment to to increase what we can do that time that we were talking about. Um, so I think there's only going to be more of this happening

Um, yeah, but, uh, um, as part of the work we're doing over the next three years, it's been missing. Co production has been missing in as one of the four key vision areas we want to facilitate. Um and so, um, yes, Locally and again, we launched about hubs as well, locally

So it's not just in Cambridge City, but it's in other parts of our area, um, and so that it's almost, like, kind of a ward level. I think so. Those hard to concentrate on issues that are local to them, but come together

Um, you know when When the issues that you know, perhaps wider and you need a need, a bigger voice. The thing is, I agree with you and I say, like, it can only get better from here, you know, we're going to lead by example from my own. And if it works, it works, you know, clear the evidence

Is there? So you are? Yeah. Everyone. Everyone should be doing it

Brilliant. So my final question will be like, Do you have any you would share with people about your experience of coping up? Just cut out. My final question is, do you have any thing that you wanted to share with people about your own experiences of co producing? Um, well, the charity we set up, I got to name it, so that was probably one of the highlights I got to name

It takes a city, and everyone agreed on it straight away, which was really epic. So yeah. Yeah, that was amazing

There's loads. There's loads and loads of little changes that have happened over the years. You know, the web site being launched the pods and that there's a, you know, really proud to say I'm a little tiny pie little tiny cog in this massive engine, you know? And I can really stand proud

You know, there was one point, buddy. Yeah, I was homeless. Exactly

It would be 55 days time. I was homeless four years ago, and I never thought there was no light at the end of the tunnel. I was really, really in a really bad place, and all the cool things I got invited to do through through this co production is just open doorways

And not just for the council. I've got my foot in the door with the Cambridge University and, you know, like, literally it's really inspiring. And I'm going to continue doing as much as I can, you know, Might not do so much production myself because I've got, you know, the really important things that are trying to stop

But, you know, I definitely be a pro. Support. Yeah

So that's again finding a way for lead to contribute with the same. Free to a busy man. Uh, sorry

Sometimes my my my brain is full, and then something falls out and then comes back in again. Um, I, um I suppose a few things, um, one of the biggest things I see is when a group has come together, people are at different stages, their journey as well. So, um, there is a number of the group who come and contribute

Who who are working now. You were homeless substance misuse issues. And, um so I think it's really helpful to see, you know, to be inspired by people

I think you mentioned inspiration once at a meeting. Um, so kind of being, you know, having inspiration is really, really cool. Um, um, I think there's a There's an element of, you know, not by design, but what people feel supported

Um, so, uh, over time, feel free to discuss some main contributions because not everyone sees things the same way. Um, that over a period of time, that sort of trust grows To say where you can, um, you can say something, um, with with with less fear of being shot down or wrong. Um, but also the way we do it

So we have We're trying to as many different, um, uh, ways of contributing as well. So and you don't have to speak out in front of 20 people. You can write it on a note and stick it on a wall or, um or so forth

Um, but yeah. Ask the question again, please. What else would you like to share with people about your experiences of production? I think one thing that is really and it seems people to like is that when we meet, we just lay on

We have some lunch before, which sort of choose you out? Yeah, and it's kind of creates a sort of informal atmosphere. I mean, another key thing that I'd like to share someone said is done, Um, around jargon, because I've seen this in so many meetings and and one of our one of our goals of this, as well as to have people who lived experience sitting on that board level with all public sector on public sector boards as well. Um, so that's an ambition

And we had to do that using a kind of buddy system where someone who was already on the meeting becomes, uh, that body or a mentor for someone who lived experience that can contribute to the group. I had a mentor. They had to give me one if it takes a seat, because I couldn't understand it when I was in trusty millions

And then there's so many acronyms. He was driving me around the bend at the time, But yes, I got two or three mentors that sat me down and explained what this Yeah, and that meant that really opened my mind. And I think that's really important because and it stops being a tick box whereby right, you've got the experience

You can sit in the meeting for two hours. We got a bit off you go. Thank you, Um, so So that's something we're going to do

But what people have said is that the, um they don't want you to stop using technical language or jargon, or they just want to do is make sure that it's explained because people want to be up skills and learn that this rather be talked down to. And I really often see in these sort of kind of or strategic meetings, we'll get a couple people come along and they'll be talked down to almost patronised in the language that because, um, actually, we should be thinking about it the other way. Um, in raising, you know, whether it's through training or mentoring or, um uh, well, the person is just going to get really bored, you know, like if he doesn't fully understand what's going on, you know, the boredom level set say education is the key And that's why the mental system really won't

I mean, it worked for me. So at the beginning of conversation, I ask you about the value of co production, and I think you, like, struggled to maybe to say what value it has. But food conversation

You've really talked about what personal value co productions had in terms of supporting people to do things in their lives and move on. You know, be busy work all that kind of stuff being talked about, like these systems And how these contracts are really meeting these people because, you know, they're being co produced by the people that we use them. So, like you're taking in a real journey of how you've done it locally

So thank you. Do you have any questions for me? Yeah, I think I can. I, um You know, we saw the email and had a bit of a background but kind of questions

You know what? I'm reading this part of some research And what sort of, uh what's happening next? I suppose would be Yeah. I will drop you an email explaining what's going to happen next. And we will look at invite some people that have shared their story to come and help us look at a number of the stories

And we look at kind of the key messages and themes that come out within the stories. And I can't tell you what they are now because I haven't looked at all of them. I've done 20 of them, but there will be some key messages

So one of those key messages, for example, could be a lot of people talk about, like, who did the conditions or the relationships. And we look at those and what we will then do is try to organise. What are the key themes coming out? What does that really mean for the value of co production in this particular project? And we always want to use, um, these stories to support kind of like hopefully other people really doing coproduction seeing What are the things that you need to do? Why is it important? Um, and we will use and we can say mobilising kind of stories that we use those stories to help you know, social change, or be the catalyst change, which is really the organist IQ

But the way that I will say is that the reason for change has to be people's lived experience and stories, and it has to be based on what people share and tell us about their experiences of co production. And I don't think there is. Um, there's not a lot of research and evidence out there around kind of the value of co production

So I mean, the reason I ask is because anything that you can gather and feedback on could be useful for us locally when we're trying to promote things locally as well, so refuse each other's day. Um, yeah, you an email to say thank you. Um, and what next? But also like when stuff around co production comes up and clearly all of our kind of feedback from people and how we've made sense of it, we'll share with you

And we hope this is like going to start off a kind of relationship with people. Um, so yeah, I'll be definitely making sure that we don't lose touch. Brilliant

Thank you so much for time. And I know my colleague will process all the data stuff and, um, allowance and all that kind of stuff were the Okay. Thank you

guys. And I wish you both luck in your journeys with production. And I'll be in touch just to let you know

You said you hadn't brought a big issue for ages. And I know you live abroad, but we now do digital copies. You've got the big issue dot com Find your vendor round church lee, and then you can buy it digitally straight to your phone

Okay? I'm just the way you like doing some co production work. I live in London. Really? Well, anyway, actually weigh in Berlin? Yeah

Hoping that the Internet didn't go down or it's just like, yeah, but yeah, I would definitely look you up and buy a copy. Thank you. I

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