Ngawai shares 3 different experiences of coproduction, and how they have impacted her and others for better or worse. She also talks openly about her journey into coproduction, and how able she is to give it time in ways that many other people cant.

Yes. I was really excited to try a co-production, um, sort of project, um, having, uh, worked briefly with the co-production collective and learned a little bit about what they were doing and what co-production was. So I worked in my local community, and we met with other moms and, uh, with other, you know, we had we worked with family action. We worked with, uh, the local hospital

Um, and, you know, a group of moms and, um, you know, and people from the hospital, So, actually, clinicians. Yeah, Um, and senior member. So we had really a lovely mix

Yeah. And we co-produced the project, and we applied. So there was a local, um, call, um, for a co-produced piece of work

And it was aimed at, um, you know, everything from pregnant women through to Children that were four years old. So this kind of fell quite nicely. Um, it was around pregnancy

And, you know, shortly after birth and women's health and services, it was to do with that, um and so we were really excited. We put together a really good application. We ticked all the boxes and made sure the objectives were really spot on, um, and then, uh, we didn't get the money

So So it was a bit heartbreaking. Um, the first experience of having gone to try and get some money to do this. Um, and we didn't get it, So, um, I asked for feedback, and then when we got the feedback, um, they were very split on the application

Um, but part of the reason really that they gave for not giving us money was that, um I put funding to pay women to help Copro produce the piece of work here. Um, and they had an objective and objection to women being paid to do the work. Um, and that they felt that it should be a voluntary thing

Um, which I just felt was not really fair. Um, for putting the time and energy that we were asking women to put, considering they had small Children. You know, it's it's a lot to ask

So that was our first experience of really hard gut wrenching, um, being rejected for some some money to do this piece of work. Um, but I think for me, the one thing I really learned was that, actually, um, maybe it was just the wrong funder. Yeah, and it's not to do with what we've co-produced and how we put a project together, but it just wasn't the right funder, and that's all it like

I think that's what I comfort myself in in the that first rejection, do you think? Do you think in that case, the funder had an understanding of what Co-production is actually about? Or I don't think so. I mean, I think they had this sort of idea of, you know, like a a rosy idea of what it was. Yeah

Um, but actually, in reality, not really. Um, and I think they were just looking for something else. Like something with hard, Um, deliverables, I suppose I know that Sounds really you know something that you can show really clearly

Whereas what we we were thinking about was a more long term, um, and kind of building capacity building. And, you know, which is a It's a different type of deliverable, and it's not. You can't put a photo of it and say, Oh, look, we you know

So I I think that probably didn't help either, but I don't really think they got it to be fair, even though that's what it was. You know, that's one of the things they were looking for. Um, what was the impact of that on? Because it sounds like you involved quite a lot of people in in that process, and and in developing that, I think the impact was so several fold

Um, so I think from the clinician side, um, I think they probably had a lot more experience of rejection. So they took it quite well. I think, um, and I think they would have been happy to follow it up and try doing this somewhere else

But they just don't have the capacity. They just don't have the time to do it. And to be fair, I was kind of driving it and pulling, you know, I suppose like the Lynch pin pulling it all together, and I didn't really have the time or energy or even I just felt a bit crushed to kind of follow it through

Um, so that was from the sort of clinician side, um, from, like, the Children's services, you know, family action, that sort of side. They were so supportive. I mean, they really were supportive

Um But, you know, they had a couple of other applications, so I think they've probably done this more before. So again, they were probably a bit realistic. Um, even from the start, probably they were just more realistic about it

Um, and then from the mum's side, um, they like, I think a lot of them haven't done this type of work before, which is kind of the point. Yeah, It's like you want people that normally aren't involved in this work to come in. And so I think from their sort of side, it was OK, well, I've got my baby and my baby's not sleeping

So, you know, there are other priorities, which is also why I wanted to make sure that we had money to pay the women to do this. So it was something that they could prioritise within their, you know, within their life, I suppose, and give them something that's theirs. Um, so I think from the mom's point of view, it was disappointing

But, you know, they were they took it Well, um, and I think the biggest impact I think was on me because it kind of made me, like, change. You know my focus. I mean, it was kind of crushing, but you learn from those experiences

Yeah. And so I think for me, it just made me more determined that actually, there is something in this. It's just that not everyone kind of gets it

Um and And I felt like I want to do other things within this space and maybe I just shouldn't focus so locally. Um, it should be like I should think of it more broadly. Yeah, and And that, you know, there's there's a there's a sadness in that isn't there because I think the whole point of some of this co-production stuff is that there is that local focus

But you know equally what you've highlighted are perhaps more systemic things that not having any impact and and also it's interesting and and again, this is like just my curiosity and a and a um, there's no right or wrong response, and you might not have a response to this at all, Really. But is is there a sense, particularly with the organisations involved, that it? It perhaps reinforces the message that people don't take this seriously. There's no point in trying and let's just carry on playing the game and doing this in the way that we've always done it

Or do you think it spurs them on to think? Actually, that's not right. We we do. You mean, you mean the people involved in co production or the people funding it, But but partly the people

I think I'm more interested in the organisation. So the professionals and the other people involved, I mean, that people a different matter entirely. I I guess I guess everybody who was involved in the process potentially, Yeah

I mean, I think from a clinician side, I've always felt that the clinicians have been, you know, all all the researchers, clinician researchers have always been the ones that had the greatest impact because maybe they didn't really get it before, but they got it afterwards. Uh, if that makes sense, so maybe they've never worked or they've only worked a little bit with, you know, people or patients, you know, not within their environment. And actually, when they hear what you know, you know their patients or the community says, you know, it either reinforces what they already think

Yeah, and it validates actually. What? They're doing or the direction of travel or or it just makes them consider the things that they hadn't considered or, you know, even working in a different way. I think working in a different way is difficult because they have constraints themselves

Yeah, and a lot of the time when I work with clinicians or researchers, they kind of do this sort of separate to their work, which isn't really fair. It's not really fair. It's not part of, you know, it's not part of their role description, and they just do it because they think there's something in it or it's important or, you know, development opportunities, networking opportunities, all for all sorts of different reasons

But I always felt that of everyone I've worked with at every different point in the last sort of 434 years. Yeah, it's always had the biggest impact on the researchers or clinicians. Um, yeah, and I think that's what I was, um, trying to kind of get to with my very bad questioning

Um, but yeah, this this. If this is an add on to the to the day job, is it worth the investment of time and energy? If it results in a in a a rejection or or not going anywhere. But I think I'm also hearing from you that the going through that process does contribute to a shift in thinking

And those people No. No. I do think it does contribute to a shift in thinking and a shift in how they deal with, you know, patients

Just generally, Um, and I actually think the people that are probably a bit more sceptical, actually the biggest converts, in a way, Um, you know, I mean, I've worked with, you know, actually, some really senior people and one guy said to me, Can't believe we haven't done this before, you know? So I you know, in some ways, I do think that, but it does. I think it does influence how they think or work, Um, and even that they reflect that. Actually, there's value, like there's added value in working with people in the community for all kinds of random reasons, not just to include, you know, to improve their practise or how they communicate

Or but actually, you know, just networking. And actually, people have different networks to them. Yeah, So there might be opportunities like random things

Yeah, serendipitous things. Sometimes that might come along. Um, So, for example, I worked with someone you know as part of a charity

You know, they were doing fundraising for the charity, and now we're cop producing a project. Um, and we actually have some money to do it, so you know, which is amazing. And that's just come from, you know, speaking to a clinician and speaking to, you know, hearing about their issues while they've been trying to fundraise for the charity

Yeah, so? So there are some There are some spinoffs. And so when we talk about the value of coproduction, it's not always the straightforward thing of applying that to a specific piece of work or project or intended outcome because it could go in any number of different, different directions. Yeah

No, I think so. I mean, I think the it can go in all different directions. I mean, that's happened to me here where you start doing one thing and you end up doing something else

Yeah, um I think the one thing that's kind of important is to I think I mean, everyone says it is about the relationships with people and being able to build trust. So there's That's definitely it. Yeah, but I think there always has to be something to focus people on

Um, so when you do copro produce these projects, that's really good. Because you have something, you know, like a focus. Yeah, And whatever that focus is whether it's in a structured way to copro produce something specific or whether it's kind of building relationships to and you kind it was more organic

Yeah, but there always has to be something to focus on. And I think it's also you need someone. Yeah, that kind of knows a little bit about it to make it happen

Like it doesn't just happen by magic, you know, um, having, even if it's just one person. Yeah, but everything I've done, you always need some kind of, like leadership, or I I mean, leadership might sound like the wrong word because you're cop producing it, and it should be, you know, kind of equal in the power balances. But you do need someone to drive in a way

Um, because I think, you know, And when you're co co producing, it can just be like you can have a flat structure, but you still need someone to kind of push it along. Like when we when we've been co producing this project. At the moment, it's all come from ideas and speaking

Yeah, about something else. Yeah, but we've focused on, you know, something to do with women's health. Yeah, that was focused on one thing

And when you speak about that one thing, you realise, actually, there's a whole load of other things. Yeah. And the people within the group are interested in in maybe something else

Yeah. So even though you have your normal project that you might be, you know, feeding into or advising or contributing to in different ways. Yeah

Actually, for us, we had kind of like a spinoff. Yeah, but again, the spinoff still needs a bit of a some kind of driving force behind it because you need someone that's going to arrange the meetings. Yeah

You know, make sure that it's convenient for people to make it. Yeah, And even if you have no money at the start, which is basically what happened to us, Yeah. You know, we just We just thought Oh, let's just try this

Yeah, and let's just try and get some money to do it properly. But in order to get some money to do it properly, you actually have to have someone's got to organise a whole series of meetings. You know, maybe you don't need to take notes at every meeting, but you do need to have some kind of notes so that you know you can kind of channel

You know you can move it forward and it might be moving it forward at different paces because you have to accommodate you know, everyone that's involved and that that can be difficult. But it's really important. Um, but, um yeah, so So I suppose that's why I think you need someone to kind of, I don't know

I kind of say leadership, but it's like driving it, really It it's what are the roles and responsibilities and skills that are needed. I guess that's part of the conditions that if if groups or people or organisations are serious about this thing we call co-production, then what? What are the conditions that are needed to to make it happen? Um, and and so I know when we were talking earlier, Now where you had some other examples as well of of coproduction. Um, which might highlight some of the different experiences that you've had

So, yeah. Do you want to talk about one of those? I think I'll talk to you a bit about this project that we're co-production. Um and because that's quite interesting at the moment

So we're still very, very early on in progress, so we'll see how it goes. But we started off. Um, so we have a patient and public involvement

Um, women's health group. Yeah. Um, and we It's such a lovely group

Yeah. And we, you know, we talk about different projects, we advise on different projects, and we I mean, we've done amazing things through the group. Yeah, like absolutely things that I never thought we would do

But the really nice thing is that actually, it's allowed us the opportunity to build relationships with each other and to trust each other because you talk about, you know, quite personal things sometimes within the group. And from that I met a clinician just in, like, a a sort of a conversation, and they were saying about some of the problems that they had. Yeah, um Do you want me to go into the detail or I'll just talk Big picture? No, you can

You what? Whatever you feel highlights that, you know, illustrates the value, really of of coproduction. So no, that's that's fine. I've got time

So OK, um, so Yeah. So we so from something the clinician said, which is really interesting. It was to do with inequalities in the local community and the woman that he would see within his clinic

So we kind of thought Well, actually, this is a great thing to just kind of talk about within the group. Um, So we invited him into the group, and he sort of just said a few words about it, like, not really a lot. Yeah

And then we just talked about it. Um, and some of the issues. Yeah

Um, but obviously we've got time constraints, so you can't really develop it. We just talked about it. And I think from that initial conversation, we realised there is something in this

Yeah, um, we don't know what it is, but there is some there, there, Like something. So then the next time, when we had our meeting, um, again we had one of the clinicians come in and just talk about it a little bit in more detail. Yeah, um, and sort of try and get to the kind of deep root of problems and what we could do and how how we could do it

And that was really helpful because it helps kind of narrow down, you know, from this amazing idea where we think, Oh, there is a problem we can narrow down. It's like, actually, where are the inequalities and what is the root problem to the inequalities? And what is it that we can do to, um, I don't know, address them. I suppose at a really local micro level, really with the idea is, let's just start, you have to start somewhere

So from that, we kind of got a working group together. Yeah. So this is what I mean

It's like, you know, it's up to one of us. Yeah. To set up the meetings

Yeah. So we set up some meetings to kind of try and distil. Yeah, also, we had clinicians slash researchers

We had women from the community and we actually invited some students along as well, and some really young medical students who who have been amazing. Really? Yeah. Um, and we kind of thought OK, well, if we sort of refine the idea together, it's like, OK, so if we want to get some money, where are we gonna get some money from to try and do this? Um, I think there's always, like, such an important aspect of it

And it took quite a few meetings and we decided, you know, on a funders put together an application, and then we had an opportunity out of nowhere to try and get, um, some money somewhere else. So actually, we had to shift what? We were where we were going for, um, somewhere else, but the idea was the same. It's just that it's just how it's framed

Yeah. Um, so we actually have some money now. Um, so now we're starting to project manage together

So this working group or, you know, co-production group, you know, we we're starting the road ahead, Really, But I feel like we have big ambitions for it. And at the moment, we're just learning. So we just wanna actually try this on the ground and see what actually comes out on the ground whether our ideas within the group match the reality and carry on any any learning that comes out of that reality

Um, with an idea that we actually want to do a bigger piece of research, but we don't know what it is. We just think that there's something there. So that's why we've got to do the initial learning to see if there really is something there

And what kind of things are coming out? Yeah, it's fascinating again. There's so much in that in in that, you know, the way that you describe the amount of time that has just been invested into the people and the relationships and the, you know, even just talking through what seems, you know, what may seem to a lot of people like a really small issue. Um, and what? That's kind of led to what? I suppose what I'm interested in

Um, just listening to you is what What? Your what your role in this is and how you've got to this point yourself, Um, as somebody who's co producing, um in in this context. So it's a bit random. So again, sometimes very serendipitous things

So the initial project that I was doing was because I got involved with co-production and collective in a very early stage, and I was just interested what they were doing, what is co-production? And that's why I got involved with them. Yeah, So I was trying. I was transitioning from, you know, having a proper job, you know, in a proper environment to to kind of doing something that I was more passionate about

Um, so I thought, Oh, this is an opportunity to learn through the coproduction collective and some of their projects. So then from that stage, I tried to copro produce locally, um, a local project, which is the one that didn't get funded. But I basically took the learning from the co-production collective to kind of drive and pull together a group to for that initial, um, idea

Yeah. And so And then the second part of it was I was actually I've been part of the patient Public Involvement group in East London. Uh, Katie's team, it's called since its formation in 2015

So I joined. I already had a baby. Then I got pregnant and I had another baby here, so I you know, I've been as part of the group for a long time, and a lot of members have, you know, come in at different points

And so I've met them and we've kind of got to know each other. Um, and my role has really been about Let's just make it happen, Yeah, let's just make it happen. We want to do this

Let's just let's just do it. Um but, you know, at the same time, it's difficult because, you know, you have, you know, you've still got to pay for your costs at home. So you know, there's only so much time and energy you can actually give to it

And I think that's why it takes so long because you have to fit it in. You know, you have family caring responsibilities. You've got In-laws to look after

You know, you've got to pay your bills. You you know there's so many other constraints. But my role really has been just to champion it

And, you know, I've organised meetings and let's just get everyone together, and then I pass a responsibility onto the students. I'm like you organise the meetings here, Um, and I'll help in other respects. Um, So is is your involvement then voluntary in this or or is this mission? Yeah, so, yeah, it's voluntary

Really? Um, right from the start. I mean, when I started with the coproduction collective, there were small funds to help pay for my time to do that, which was very helpful. And when I've been in the patient Public Involvement group, for example, there have been again, like, really, really small funds to pay for us to do that

But we do it because it's important to not just me, but to everyone but everything else. We've just kind of done off. I've just done it off my own back and within my own time

And, you know, it's it's a lot, but I just feel like it's important, and I want to do it. So I just prioritise it. And I'm lucky enough that my husband really supports me, and, you know, he'll look after the kids while I do some work

You know, those type of things. Um, what kind of enables me to do it? And gosh, the the impact of that, then on on me, you know, that makes me feel a bit like something's not quite right here in terms of if this is making such a big difference to yourself and to the people that are in your network and potentially to the professionals and organisations that you're kind of working alongside that that something about the value of this is is skewed somewhere along the line that are the resources in the right place. Is that Does it feel like that? Yeah

No, it definitely feels like that. I mean, really, I should have just gone back and done a proper job. Like, financially

That's what makes sense. Yeah, for me and my family. Yeah

I mean, it's the big sacrifice. Um, I mean, luckily, I helped start up a charity, so I work part time for the charity, and that's kind of, you know, helped me kind of mean cost neutral, in a way so it doesn't really You know, I have some support here. Um, you know, if I didn't have any kind of income, this would be completely unsustainable

Yeah, and actually, when I had a proper job, there's no way I could have dedicated this much time or energy, you know, you come home and exhausted. You've got the Children, which you know, you You want to spend some time with them? Yeah. And then I had caring responsibilities with my IN-LAWS

So you just have, like, zero energy. So you might be able to attend a meeting at lunch time. Or you might be able to have a look at a document at some point

You know, I remember being on holiday and looking through a document, and my husband's like, What the hell are you doing? I'm like, if I don't do this now, yeah, I'm not gonna have a chance to do it. Yeah, so you go, you know, take the kids out and let me just have a couple of hours to just look at this. Yeah, So I do think there is something skewed in the system

And actually, when I reflect back on the impact, that not just me, but our patient public involvement group has achieved. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing

Yeah, we're doing all kinds of things. Yeah, or like it's not just me here. We have other people who are doing really impact in really impactful roles within the UK

We've done some work internationally here, and this is just from our little kind of patient and public involvement. Um, and now we've got this kind of local co co production type project kicking off. That's really our baby

Like we've always been involved in other things or championed other, you know, other causes. Yeah, but this is like our baby that we've kind of made happen ourselves. But, you know, it's taken of, you know, a lot of years to get to the point where a we even consider that we can do this, B, that we can prioritise it, c that we have some experience, so we don't know everything, but we know a little bit, and we're gonna just try from that, you know? And it it has to be all these things, you know, kind of slotting in together to actually make it happen

Um, so I do think, you know, there is something systemic that, you know, could work better to really harness everyone's, you know, enthusiasm. Um, and everyone wants to have an impact in some capacity in their lives. Yeah, even anything small

You know, whether it's, you know, you help a lady you know, across the road. Yeah, or you you know, create, You know, you you start a huge research project, or you, um you help your hospital, you know, advise them in some kind of health capacity or or you read to your child at night here, um or you know what I mean. So I think everyone has innately something really positive within them here, and it's enabling the environment around them to bring out the best in in everyone

That's that's so powerful. Um, no way, Um, and and again, I know it sent me off on a whole whole kind of train of thought around. Does the system really value? Um, does it feel like the system really values what? What you do

And I'm guessing there are individuals within that, and you know, your direct experience in terms of what you're doing. But does it do? Do you feel that the kind of wider change or what you want to impact what you're contributing is of value? Um, I mean, I definitely it's weird because I feel like I'm in a position now where I can actually reflect, and you can actually see the differences you've made. So I deep down on oh, I know that I've had an impact

It you know, different, you know, to different degrees in different places. Um, but, you know, the system also has some really amazing things. Yeah

Um, for example, the National Institute of Health Research here. They really have, you know, systemic processes to enable, you know, public members to contribute to research to what is funded, you know? I mean, really, and it's something. So even though systemically there's lots of problems in different places, there's also really good examples of amazing, you know, work

And it's only when you kind of step out of the UK. I think that you realise just how lucky we are. So even though in the UK you know that Oh, this doesn't work or this is a problem, or this is a pain, you know

But when you look outside the UK, you realise, actually, within the maturity level of this type of work, we're actually a lot more, you know, a a greater maturity than in many other places. And I feel to me like I if sometimes I'm frustrated, I just reflect on that and you know that that's important, too, and, um so so Yeah, there's a really amazing examples. And for me, the work I've done within N i HR has been amazing

You know, I feel like there you definitely I've definitely had an impact. Um, and I feel so thankful for that. And actually, I've learned so much as well

Um, so So there are good practises, you know, even with the coproduction collective. I mean, I've learned so much, and it's really you meet all these people who are so random that you've never meet in your normal life, and I always feel when I attend something, you feel like you get energy from other people and just hearing other people. Don't worry

There's this background chaos here. Carry on. Oh, no

But, you know, you get energy from other people, and actually, that's something really valuable from the co-production and collective. Um, sometimes they go away with ideas. Sometimes you go away just with positive energy or with like, a can do

OK, you know what? We can do it. Let's just make it happen somehow. Yeah, and that's just from the energy from speaking to people

Sometimes you consider things that you've never really thought about. You know, um I mean, I know I had a conversation with someone, um, you know, and it just really made me think about that. And actually, now we've actually done some, you know, I really lobbied for this year, um, within the systems and the processes

And now we're doing something really amazing that's going to be launched soon with a serious money behind it. Yeah, And that came out of this conversation with this lady. Um, and I'm just so thankful for that because she made me see things on the ground from a different perspective

Um, and I took that perspective somewhere where I could have an impact. And, you know, that kind of It's not just me like that, aligned with different priorities and different people, but and they were ready for it. So but now it's like, Oh, wow, something amazing is gonna happen

Um, with serious money, which is the other thing. Yeah. And so in that sense, you are really getting to the heart of it and and beginning to realise that the value I mean, the the the financial side of it is is not is not the biggest thing here, is it? I think what you've described is everything else

It's the people, the relationships, the the conversations, the the encounters, the the ideas that are generated that have led to, you know, being able to, um, uh, secure funding, I guess to a different way. And and you kind of like it. It's that it's that chicken and egg thing for want of a really better phrase in that in that, you know, you could come up with ideas and get funding, but it might not actually lead to the same outcome as if you go through the process in the way that you've described it

No, no, I mean, definitely. I do think they're really like there is something to be said about having some financial options. Yeah, because, you know, I don't know how to say it in, like, a nice way, but I've been very lucky

Yeah, And there have been quite a few times where I thought, What the hell am I doing? Like this is just ridiculous. Yeah, I'm losing money. I'm going to work and losing money

You know, at one point, I was paying for my child to go to nursery here, and I'm earning less money, you know, or no money. Yeah. And I'm having to pay to be able to learn or to be able to have these opportunities

Yeah. And I mean, and for so many times, I've just thought, you know what? I should just go and get a normal job. Yeah, but I just stuck it out

And it's only looking back now that I think Oh, I'm so glad I stuck with it. Yeah, even when financially, it was really difficult. Yeah

Um, and even now it's like I'm not really back to where I was before. Yeah, it's just that now I'm doing something that feels really meaningful to me. And also, it gives me flexibility around my other

You know, about my caring responsibilities as well. Um, but I think I don't know. You don't

It feels bad to say the money is important, but it is important because, you know, sometimes I would do something and they'd actually pay for my child care here. And you think, Oh, well, that's one less day. I've got to pay for child care here, and and the other thing is like, even if I do it for nothing, it's it is like stuff like the childcare or Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense

And and that's a really strong, um, that's a really strong message for people to hear. I think Is that what is the impact and what do people actually really invest in this? And if you were to put a value on CO-PRODUCTION based on what you've described in terms of your time, the costs, the investment, um, what actually would that begin to to look like, um, in in terms of Yeah, the the accent is not really even that obvious. Yeah

I mean, a lot of times people are happy to not, you know, not get paid for their time. Yeah, And for many years, that was the case for me as well. It's just that as you learn and you want to take it more seriously and you want to drive things again, it's like you want to champion and drive, then

Actually, it really is important to have some kind of financial stability within it. Um, I don't know what the right answer is. I mean, sometimes I think in other aspects of business and, you know, health care or whatever

You know, they you know, the systems invest in people. Yeah, they they don't just invest in the piece of work. Yeah, but they invest in developing people

And actually having something like that, I think, would be really helpful. I mean, I would have really appreciated that. And that's not to say that I should have got any kind of money for this year

But I feel like if I had financial stability and support early on, yeah, I could have done what I'm doing now. A lot sooner and a lot better. And even like you're always learning in life

Yeah, but, you know, I think I would have been able to do more and better sooner. Hm. And easier as well, you know, because you don't have the worry of everything else in, you know, the burdens of your normal life

You know, even your health burdens. Yeah, because it takes a toll on your health. And, you know, sometimes there's only a physical, like there's, you know, like, physically you just can't do it

So even if you want to do it, yeah, physically, you just can't do it. So to have some kind of remuneration to enable that time that you are able to do it to focus. Yeah, And then it also has an impact on you physically because mentally you feel like, OK, all these problems that I'm having, But I'm actually doing something for good or focusing channelling that into something really positive

So even from just a mental health perspective for you as a person is really meaningful and helpful. And then when you're in a group talking to others, it's like peer support because then you realise, Oh, actually, I'm not alone. Someone else has this problem as well

And you know, so you feel like a sense of, um, yeah, like peer support, I suppose, in the process of co producing something, you know? Yeah, and which, coming back to where we started in terms of the funding bid and it not being successful because actually, one of the core things of that was being able to value the time of the people that you wanted to contribute to that project is is kind of ironic, um, in in terms of, you know, your investment in this and and Yeah, I know You know what a lot of the women that I work with as well. Yeah, you know, you know, they have lots of Children. Yeah, it's like their time commitment

I've only got two. Yeah, but two is like, so when you you know, it's really it is difficult. And I think the other thing I wanted to say was about a different co-production thing that I'd done as well

So, um, I worked with the coproduction collective and one of my other colleagues. Friends? I don't know. I don't know how we referred to each other, you know? I mean, in essence, she's my friend

Yeah, but we work together, so it's kind of sometimes. So it's it's weird to know what to call each other, I suppose. Um, but alongside the co-production and collective, we worked on a cop producing some training, and that was an interesting experience as well

Yeah, and I learned a lot from that because I've done training before. Yeah, you know, in my work life, um, or even, you know, speaking at different events. But this was really interesting because we develop the ideas together and you're bouncing off and you're looking OK

This is what they want to achieve. And you know what are different ways, and you can be creative. Um, and that's actually really nice as well

To have space to just do something. Oh, yeah. I've always wanted to do that

Let's try doing that. Yeah, And then when we were in the training, we were like, Well, we don't know if this is gonna work, but we're gonna try it and see Yeah, And then they you know, then you feel like a collective sense. Well, we're trying this together for the first time, and even that's a leveller as well

Um, within. And that was really interesting because we had several sessions, um, co producing the training, Um, and, yeah, it was interesting. All of us had something to contribute in different ways and at different like, um, you know, sometimes maybe it's about learning about practical actual knowledge here

Other times, it's around how you deal with people or about troubleshooting things. You know, um, you know, like I mentioned about child care. Well, actually, you need to make sure that people are able to attend

You know, if you have a baby and you're breastfeeding, Yeah, it's like you have to take your baby with you. Yeah. So you're gonna have to have changing facilities in where you're meeting

Yeah. Or if you're meeting at home, you're gonna have to, you know, know that someone might need to leave in a minute or might have a baby, or they might cry. Or they might need to go and change the baby

So again, it's a bit about flexibility as well. Yeah, I know that. Yeah

Makes makes a lot of sense in terms of that, um, experience. You've just described around co producing training. What? What do you think the impact of or the benefit of developing training in that way was for people on the receiving end on the receiving end? Yeah

I mean, I think it was two fold, really. One was around the relationships, so kind of like a leveller. You know how they say about the different power dynamics within the room

So in a way, it's kind of a way to level the room, and it doesn't matter who you are or like, we're all trying to do this together. It's like that. It's like the cultural thing from the training and, you know, you like you set the tone

Yeah. You set the tone from the training and how you're facilitating the training, the kinds of things that you're doing. So I think one is around

That is quite, um, is more interesting than in other scenarios that I've been with. Um, the other thing is that you can be really creative. Um, like, you can still get the same output that you need, but just in a weird kind of way

I mean, I've never worked like that before. Yeah, so it was new to me as well, So I learned along the process also. Um, but, you know, it's around

Oh, should we? You know, how should we frame the question? Yeah, So you might frame the question in a more open way. Or you might frame the question from a different angle. Maybe from a more personal angle perhaps

Um so I think it. I think there's an element to that. I don't know

It's kind of in a weird, tangible way. Really. Um, and also it's just like fun

Yeah, you know, it's like you go to training sometimes it's a bit dull, and you're like, OK, you're doing this because you have to do this. But actually, when we've done the follow up trainings, people actually remember because we did kind of whack you. You know, you know a bit different stuff to what they normally do on the training

Um, or you remember something random that someone said, Um, so it was something for them to look forward to. I think as well. Yeah

Sorry. I'm just scribbling down some notes here. Um, because you sparked me off on another train of thought, which is not related to this at all

But just just hearing you describe that experience, um, and the benefit to to organisations of just stopping and thinking, you know, the other thing. Sorry. Just just the other thing was that actually, like, we've made net networks

Yeah. So even within, So for instance, someone that was working is is doing something that's not a million miles from things that I'm trying to do. So even though we haven't worked together and maybe we won't work together, but I actually know someone is doing this piece of work

Yeah, and they'll know that I'm doing something else because we've shared this within the sessions. Yeah, um, so, actually, I've I've actually recommend them, you know, or linked to other people. Said, Oh, you might want to look at what this group is doing

Yeah, um, it's really interesting. And they're doing it like this, so even you might not necessarily connect them, or you might not connect them at this point, But it's an opportunity. Yeah, Create potential opportunities

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. Especially in in in my world, in this world of coproduction is it? Is those the connections and things, you know? And even just from these conversations with people you know, the connections that you make and and how that kind of grows And it it's a bit bit spiders. Webby, I guess

Yeah, Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It is a bit like that

And I think it's really difficult to quantify that. Yeah. I mean, something else

Like, if you think about zoom meetings. Yeah, and you think about I don't know, like, an office environment, even. Yeah

You think actually, something that being in the office is really valuable is going to the coffee machine here or to the tap to get some water here because Or you're going, you know, down to the lobby to go and get some lunch. Yeah, because it's at those points where you actually bump into people. Yeah, and that's one thing you can't really do on zoom you have

It's all got to be quite scheduled. Yeah, online. But when you're in physical contact, you have opportunities for serendipitous conversations or you're working on it

Oh, we're doing this. Or why aren't we? You know, why aren't we doing this together? Or or actually we Someone needs to be, you know, linked in with you or something. So those those opportunities, it's How do you put a value on that? It's a bit like, you know, how do you put a value on that? Those networks and spider webs? Yeah, but you know, there's value

It's just, you know, people think of value in financial terms is like, How much money is this generating or how much benefit you know, how much money is it saving? How much benefit is it? So? So, in order for decision makers at the very top yeah, to enable or funds to do co-production work, you have to align it. Yeah, and give them something really tangible. Yeah

Um, and I think that's the thing with Co-production or those interactions that I've spoken about, it's difficult to put a number on that..

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