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Report transcript in: Al Talks about Co-Production
Please Report the Errrors?
To this
You should get a notice um that I you called.
So first of all,
can I get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about
what you do in co-production?
So,
hi,
my name's Al Richards.
Um,
I'm,
uh,
I identify as being a co-producer.
Um,
and that basically means,
um,
usually kind of
trying to bring people together,
um,
and trying to kind of construct
ideas and plans,
um,
to kind of make things better,
to have more accessibility,
to have,
um,
regular people,
um,
You know,
like you and I
being involved in things like this.
Um,
but maybe on a slightly kind of more strategic level.
Um,
so I,
I would probably identify with somebody that does
this on a more of a strategic level,
who is kind of maybe a little bit more of a,
a coordinator,
um,
and somebody that can really kind of help people try and understand what
Co-production really is
um and how
and how to do it right so that we're getting the best out of people.
Thanks,
Al.
Can I ask you that we're exploring what
the racialized experience of co-production has been,
so
how has your experience as a global
majority individual been in relation to co-production?
I think it's been very interesting because
um I think
the world outside
that we live in actually plays out
um
in these pockets
of co-production,
um,
you know,
they.
I think there is a lot of
issue around obviously,
systemic racism and
issues that we've seen around
people not being.
I don't know how best to say this,
but almost like.
Not,
not just not
Respected,
but I think
There are lots of power and pay issues in regards to
us being paid on time,
um,
issues that kind of are,
are part of the general workforce.
Um,
and
I think they play out quite
interestingly in
co-production circles.
Um,
because
in co-production,
it is meant to be
that
anyone and everyone
participates.
Yet,
when everyone and anyone does want to participate,
there's that kind of feeling of well.
We're not really gonna get that person,
um,
because we won't really understand where they're from or,
or what it is exactly that they're really kind of talking about.
Um,
and I,
I found it quite interesting
because actually,
um,
I speak very well,
um,
English,
although it's not my first language.
Um,
and I suppose I sound very articulate,
which is another phrase that I absolutely hate.
Please don't call me that.
Um,
you know,
I have a certain level of,
um,
academia when it comes down to co-production,
and I'm not talking about just regular
kind of go to school academia,
but especially around co-production.
Um,
because I really want people to be involved.
And I think that's the essence of the message in my own head.
It may sound very simplistic,
um,
but it works for me.
But the issue that I have is,
is that,
like,
unfortunately,
a lot of people of colour,
um,
the system is almost rigged against
us
doing things,
being part of the system,
um,
trying to change the system.
So.
Usually,
whenever I introduce myself,
um,
within meetings,
I always tell people that I'm a person of colour.
I think it's really important because
I don't come on camera often.
Um,
and because I don't come on camera,
I want people to feel safe,
um,
especially around me,
to be able to talk about things.
Um,
and these are things,
you know,
that you may speak to,
to your friends about,
um.
You know,
it may even be uh a culture or background that I'm not familiar with,
but actually they'll feel so safe and actually being able to talk to me.
But what ends up happening is is that then.
I've become one of the sideline people.
Um,
and
I think for me,
a layer of having to protect myself is to actually turn the camera off
so that I can,
I can hear
the racism going on around me.
I can feel it going on around me,
but I don't want people to watch me as I suffer,
um,
or as I go through
what exactly is happening in front of my eyes.
Um,
so the eye rolling.
The kind of the basic,
um,
cutting me off at sentences,
um,
talking over me,
um,
me giving out,
uh,
a kind of an idea of,
you know,
maybe this could work,
and then somebody coming up with more an improved version,
which always ends up sounding a lot better.
And surprise,
surprise,
it's always somebody from,
um,
you know,
the,
the global minority,
um,
that end up speaking this.
And
I think
those circles are quite hard to navigate in
because
for me,
I feel the trauma,
um,
a lot worse because in my own head,
I,
I know
who I am and I'm so certain,
but because I see
racism and I experience it,
um,
in different ways.
And I think I know quite a lot about,
um,
equality,
uh,
diversity and inclusion.
Just because
I see it all around me,
so I can,
I can kind of say this doesn't work,
or this isn't working because of a certain
discrimination kind of background or discriminatory practise.
But I think within co-production circles,
it's,
it's quite hard,
I think,
for people to really understand that they need to
be very open,
um,
and
psychologically safe.
To be able to kind of give their
thoughts if co-production is about everyone getting involved,
then it actually means every single person,
it doesn't mean actually
certain people of a certain background.
Can I ask you how much,
what's the impact that racism's had on your
psychological wellbeing,
your mental health?
Um,
Well,
I mean,
for me,
I know that it,
um,
directly
affected my mental health,
as in,
I wasn't mentally unwell before,
um,
the constant kind of bullying and discrimination that I got at work.
Um,
and I,
I always use this,
um,
example,
but I don't think,
um,
I think people are kind of
quite taken aback with it.
But um because I call
racism a a form of violence,
a form of assault,
um,
a form of abuse,
um.
Basically,
I,
I akin it normally to
to rape.
Um,
so,
you know,
you're going to work,
you've been abused.
And then you carry on going to work with the abuser.
And you keep on seeing that same person who has raped you.
And you're forced to work with them.
And that's exactly what happened to me.
And,
um,
I held out 6 months,
um,
and then I just became so unwell.
Um,
the last straw was actually then
that,
um,
The complaint,
uh,
that I may have been kind of almost dealt with as in,
you know,
the person and,
uh,
you know,
apologised and said sorry and whatever,
but not to my face,
um.
And then
the flip side was that
uh then a complaint was raised about me.
So I
I think.
When it comes down to kind of mental health,
that
that's the only kind of
main reason that I've become unwell.
And
now that
I've become unwell because of it,
and I've been unwell for
over 1314 years now,
um,
I
Feel
Racism,
um,
I feel.
Discrimination
when,
when I'm in a room.
Um,
and maybe that's
a hypervigilant state of mind.
Maybe it's always on.
Um,
maybe I can't see it any other way.
Maybe
the lens is shifted to a way where I've,
I've recognised behaviour and I've recognised,
um,
certain things that seem to play out very,
very minutely,
very,
very subtly.
But I can see it,
I can feel it,
um.
And
I think that always keeps me on edge,
and I,
I think that that is
unfortunate because
every interaction I have,
whether it be
um good or bad,
I actually have to sleep a lot.
I have to sleep a lot now,
um.
You know,
just going from meeting to meeting because
it's just so exhausting,
um.
Being
present,
having to talk to these people who are.
Who are being discriminatory in the way that they're doing things,
um,
but
having to kind of say to myself,
I can't fight
every battle I've got to be here for the war,
so.
that is,
I think that cost towards mental health on my own.
Sounds really difficult and.
When I share with people,
um,
bits about this project,
people say,
oh well,
so how does how does racism
show up in
co-production spaces?
And you like to touch on that.
So,
like,
how have you experienced racism in co-production spaces?
Um
Well,
I think
I said,
I said earlier about,
you know,
when I've said something and then somebody's come
up with a so-called improvement type version,
um,
of what it is exactly that I've said that,
that has been happening
within kind of racist circles for a long time.
Um,
the stealing of ideas,
um,
the kind of understanding of.
How do I now support people who are visibly on camera,
for example,
um,
because co-production doesn't usually now kind of really happen in a room anymore.
It seems to always happen online.
Um,
you know,
people are looking at one another's names,
um,
they're trying to guess what kind of background people are at,
um.
It's interesting because actually I,
and I think you,
you picked up on this,
on,
on the event day,
was that,
um,
our mutual friend Jackie,
um,
said my name.
Um,
and you were quite surprised,
and
I think people don't really understand that actually,
um,
what Jackie calls me is my real name.
Um,
the issue that I have is that people were mispronouncing it so much.
And
with my name,
it was actually um a priest who actually named me.
Um,
so it wasn't even a parent,
it was a priest,
and,
and I'm a practising Muslim and
When you disrespect my name,
you disrespect me.
And,
um,
I remember going into a group,
and,
um,
I never told anybody my name.
I always,
I always gave them my surname,
so they all had to call me mister.
Um,
and then in the end,
they just kind of,
they made up the name Al,
um,
and they said,
We're gonna call you Al.
You look like an owl.
And I thought,
that's perfect.
And I actually stuck with it.
And
for me,
that has lessened because people now
can say my name,
whether they're very old,
whether they're very young,
um,
whether they're white or any other colour in between.
They can all say
my name properly and.
Although it's not my name.
A lot of people know me by it.
And I think
when you come back to co-production circles in itself.
Having that anglicised name,
not feeling fully psychologically safe,
understanding that you're going to get the same treatment,
and you 99% of the time will actually get
the same type of treatment.
Um,
and coming into co-production circles,
I,
you know,
I love co-producing.
I really do,
and this is not.
I'm trying not to try and say very much that is negative about it because I,
I really do enjoy it.
Um,
but
I,
I think the way that maybe we're doing it,
um,
and having to listen to people's kind of opinions and.
I always know that my opinion is kind of out there.
Um,
I'll talk about things like
colonialism.
Um,
I will talk about things and,
and those things are really relevant to the plans that we make today,
because they're actually framing our thinking and framing
the way that we're actually doing co-production.
So when you're,
when you're,
for example,
and,
you know,
I,
I'm going to use the example of co-production collective.
Um,
you know,
when we're using jam boards and we're using these trees and we're
using kind of like we want to really hear your thoughts.
Um
I think that actually,
first of all,
we don't get enough time to think about those thoughts,
um,
because I need extra time to actually frame them.
Um,
I have to always go usually 2 or,
or very last.
Um,
I usually wait until it's at the last minute
and then I can see the door about to close and I go,
I've got a quick thought,
and I'll quickly just say it.
Because actually,
by the time after I've said it,
I don't need to then hear other people kind of go.
Well,
I disagree with that,
or that doesn't really work for me.
Um,
I just want to say it,
and whoever's typing will say,
Thank you.
I'm just trying to type it.
OK,
we're gonna go back into the room.
Bye.
And we're all just gone.
I,
I don't want to hear the,
the kind of like,
oh,
but where does that happen?
And why,
why are you bringing this into it?
Why are you talking about race?
And I'm thinking,
well,
actually,
when you think about people that are the most unequal in society,
and when you're talking about inequalities,
that,
that is us.
Um,
so why am I,
why should I not talk about it?
Why should I not highlight it?
Why should I pretend that everything's rosy?
And I think this is where co-production in itself is,
is a place that stops us from talking about it.
Um,
there was a woman
that I spoke to,
I believe,
in
The meeting
Um,
when,
when I had the meeting with yourself and,
and with others.
And,
um,
it was a lady,
and I'm sure you remember,
but I,
I can't remember her name,
unfortunately,
for the life of me.
I don't remember what she looks like.
But she said,
um,
she spoke about,
you know,
unless we talk about colonialism and unless we talk about these types of,
um,
subjects,
we won't really get anywhere.
And
I was very fortunate in that I actually private messaged her and I said,
thank you so much.
Because I just thought,
I,
I just wasn't ready to kind of go down that path yet
because,
you know,
whenever we have any of these meetings,
although we're told they're safe spaces,
they really aren't.
They're very,
very
difficult spaces because
I look at everybody in the room,
I'm like,
OK.
There's quite a lot of people
who look
like they are white,
and I don't know what their background is.
So I don't know if it's safe enough for me to say something or
or not.
Um,
if I say something,
what will then happen?
Because I've seen meetings,
especially within co-production collective derailed because of
white tears,
because of kind of people
hugging the limelight and,
and trying to stop.
Conversation from really happening
um and from us getting to I think some form of
solution or resolution
for
not just how we're going to work together but actually
maybe for some of the problems outside of co-production.
So I think it's really difficult to be fully
psychologically safe,
um,
because you know that you're.
Your frame,
your lens
is towards
um
a way of working that is
equitable,
but actually you have people that have no real understanding and don't
ever.
Get,
you know,
the so-called biases or they say
it's an unconscious bias,
for example,
when really I,
I just don't know,
it isn't unconscious bias.
You,
you know exactly what you're doing.
You're not stupid.
Um,
you know exactly how this is playing out.
I'm happy to explain that to you,
but you need to actually understand what I'm trying
to tell you rather than actually rejecting it.
And I think this is the.
This is the fear around co-production that actually
we won't be understood and
um people don't want to get us and.
Actually,
when you look at the jam board.
After I've said what I've said.
I think it's quite interesting depending on who's the one
who actually types what it is that is being said.
Because those words kind of almost disappear,
and you look at them and you think,
I never really actually said that.
But actually
my
my words have been twisted in some way.
And I'd love it if somebody came back and said,
oh,
could you just let me know if everything that I've written here is correct?
Did I get it right?
Um,
because
9 times out of 10 they,
they kind of haven't,
they,
they've just given some of the buzzwords,
but they're not given the context behind it.
And I think that can be quite inflammatory,
um,
and make people just think,
oh,
and it can lead to those kind of
talks of
what's this about racism,
let's stop talking about it.
But I think it's a conversation that we really actually need
to have.
We need to have time to discuss it.
We need kind of more of a face to face
because.
I can't see when people are bored or sick to death of what I'm saying.
Um,
I can't tell when people are just wanting to leave or
they're just,
you know,
twitching.
Um,
I need to see their whole body language.
I need to experience that where I'm at
is a safe space,
where I'm at is not a place where.
I'm going to feel really exposed.
I want it to be a place of solidarity.
I want it to be a place
of.
Healing for all of us,
listening to stories.
And yes,
we can all be affected by what we hear,
um,
like I was
um at the event.
Um,
but what I found,
I think.
More harrowing apart from the story,
and that was quite harrowing in itself,
was actually the reactions of people.
I,
I look at the entire room,
everybody's looking at one person and I'm looking at the entire room to see.
How's the feeling shifted in this room?
Is there a solidarity feeling?
Is there a psychological safe feeling?
And I didn't feel it.
I felt a lot of people kind of looking,
um,
I think people,
and it's kind of,
and I'm gonna be
quite explicit here,
so I hope you don't misunderstand.
But I think
people.
Who are
of
real colour,
um.
People who
Understood the story.
People who
like myself
actually looked and took it in and
nodded
because although it wasn't our experience,
we,
we recognise it.
I think there were only a few of us in that room.
That could really
experience it on that level.
And I think this is where then
for me,
co-production almost fails because
you have all these other people who are there.
And in their head they're still trying to fathom.
How something like that actually happens,
when really it does happen,
but people are still trying to figure it out,
and if you're trying to figure something out.
Then for me,
I'm thinking.
Are you,
are you?
Like,
are you somebody that actually goes through what
we go through?
Or are you people that are just here
to watch this form of
trauma porn
and and kind of sit there and then leave the room at the end and say.
Oh no,
that didn't really happen,
or
how could that happen or that's never happened to me.
I,
I don't question anybody's story or anybody's experience of what they go through.
Who am I to do that?
Um,
I can't.
Your experience is your,
your own.
You may talk to me about it.
I'll,
I'll probably understand it
in,
you know,
up to about 90,
95%.
But
you're in that experience,
so only you can narrate it to me.
Only you can tell me how you exactly felt,
but I can help be in your shoes and try and understand it as well.
But I'm,
I wasn't there.
Um,
and maybe my reaction might be slightly different.
I don't know.
But maybe it would be the exact same.
Um,
but when you have people in a room who are
not ready to listen to that,
when you have people in a room who are just kind of
sat there and
You know,
there was no
Oh my god,
you know,
how,
how did you feel about that?
No,
nobody came up
to the lady in question to even ask.
How she was
and.
I was quite lucky because I've sat with
with an Asian woman who I believe you know quite well,
um,
and
when,
when she spoke to me about in between of
course speaking about her husband not being there.
Um,
Both of us were in solidarity at that very moment,
we were both
holding one another up.
And trying to,
trying to carry on
with
having,
having a bit of a talk um and looking at people's reactions.
But I,
I watched how.
The lady
who had her story was just kind of.
She was just sat there
and I just thought.
How,
how,
you know,
how do any of us approach her.
But why the people who are here that have quite easily just gotten up and.
Carried on with their,
with the rest of the event or the rest of the day,
how are they managing to just kind of do that
when,
when people like myself and other people who have.
Kind of
experience that on some level,
in some way,
shape or form,
how do we then end up
consoling one another.
To say,
it's OK,
I've got your back.
I get it.
This is,
you know,
this is really what we've heard and this is really
what it is that's happened,
because we don't get it.
And I think in those co-production spaces,
that is what is
really apparent that I think when people are.
Hurt
that maybe we don't,
we don't show that compassion,
but we as people of colour.
are
are reliving the trauma again.
In some way,
shape or form,
it may not be exactly the same,
but it will be on on some related way.
And I think this is where then it it kind of all goes wrong.
Can I ask you about?
Some of the pushback that we get
in relation to raising the historical context of,
Um,
our experiences,
so
you've done co-production for a long time,
um,
we've spoken up for psychological safety,
we talked about stories,
what.
What is it that happens,
that why are we not talking about the historical context of
race,
um,
racism,
imperialism in a co-production space?
I don't think anybody's ready for the conversation.
And it,
and it's quite interesting because,
um,
you know,
I want to kind of bring it fast forward
to,
to kind of this,
this,
um.
You know,
this genocide that obviously is taking place in Gaza.
Um,
and
listening to,
um,
You know,
Israel say,
this is our land.
Um,
we used to live here 2000 years ago.
And,
and how you notice how everybody says
we should never forget,
you know,
the Holocaust,
for example.
Um,
never forget,
and it should never ever happen to anyone ever again.
And we're watching it live on screen
all the time
and people are kind of going.
You know,
I,
I akin the Palestinian people to people of colour,
and I uh akin Israel to white people.
And
that their hurt matters that when they talk about things that are from the past,
it's really important.
You know,
um,
September 11th,
it seems to be a so-called global event.
Um,
in Afghanistan,
it's happening every day.
In Yemen,
in Congo,
in Sudan,
in Libya,
in all these other countries,
nobody gives a damn,
you know,
the buildings just fall,
they just fall.
And
That's OK.
That's OK.
I,
I think for me.
I,
my understanding is is that white pain matters more.
It's more
generally,
it seems to be generally more understood,
um,
and it seems to be more relatable.
Um,
and I think this is the pushback that we get.
People don't want to hear it because they're like,
oh.
You're,
you know,
you're telling us about
that
um.
That all of this stuff happened,
we'll get over it,
get over it.
Um,
we can't because actually it's in the fabric of our DNA.
Um
You know,
there's a reason
why,
you know,
some of us have got mental health problems.
Um,
and I can tell you something,
it,
it ain't just due to,
you know,
us going through some crap in this life.
You know,
we're more prone to it.
You know,
diabetes is is always my favourite illness because actually,
um,
you're more prone to it if you're from the South Asian diaspora.
Um,
you know,
why is that?
Why,
why is it exactly?
You know,
why is it in this country,
there seems to be a mental health epidemic.
All of our kids are becoming unwell.
When I go to the mosque,
we talk about
mental health or lack of mental health.
And
I sit there and I think to myself,
our kids are more prone to it in this country.
But if I went back to Saudi,
if I went back to India,
they're less likely to have all of these things.
Why is it?
It's because we have been transported to a different world and we live in this world,
which is the only world that we
know as children or grandchildren or great grandchildren
of migrants,
um,
and we can't move back.
You know,
you,
you hear so much
about.
You know,
that
actually we should respect everyone or be kind.
To people and,
and please be aware when I say be kind.
Please be aware of exactly what that means,
which is,
it means being first of all,
very selective.
Um,
and secondly,
that
be kind.
Is only for white people.
It's not for us.
It's selectively used
and weaponized
against people of colour and people who are
so called different according to the heteronormative
kind of
white world,
um,
that we,
that we kind of live in.
So,
I think,
you know,
white people unfortunately are not.
Able
to be compassionate.
I think when we look at the NHS it's clearly demonstrated
because they have a quite clear issue with being compassionate towards people.
I,
I think it's just deficit in white people because
they are
the global minority
and they need to make sure that they constantly.
You know,
divide and rule us,
and this is the only way that they can actually do it.
That's why nobody seems to be ready for us,
a,
a conversation around it.
Because as soon as a white person says,
oh,
I've had enough of this,
it's like the whole room comes to a halt.
You know,
there's no kind of like,
well,
there's the door,
bye bye.
You know,
um
And we as people of colour,
I think we rely too much on whiteness.
Um,
we live in white houses.
We wear white clothes,
we
partake in white services.
All of this stuff is whiteness.
It's everywhere.
And I think on some level,
we're all complicit.
We're all complicit with the places that we're in,
because actually we've all had to conform
to be somebody we're not
to enter the workforce.
And quite rightly,
unfortunately,
you know,
when I speak to a lot of people,
I go,
well,
You're dependent on your mortgage,
aren't you,
for this,
this job's to pay,
you know,
you,
how are you gonna pay your mortgage
if you lose this job,
so you've got to keep silent,
don't you?
Um.
That's complicity.
That is,
that is you doing that.
But the problem is,
is that all of us have not got it into our
heads as people of colour that we need to rise up
and that we need to actually say,
enough is enough.
Because,
you know,
if you,
if you took every person of colour
out of the NHS,
it would,
it would fall down flat.
Everybody knows this.
Everybody knows this.
But because of the fear of us losing our own homes,
we're too scared to actually do anything.
So we're upholding that whiteness,
we're upholding that white supremacy.
We're upholding all of this stuff,
even though we think that,
you know,
we're trying to fight against it.
You know,
we're,
we're using,
we're using
all of this technology to do all of this stuff.
And although
people say,
oh,
technology is for everyone,
actually when we think about Africa,
when we think about
kind of other countries that are maybe viewed as less developed.
Um,
they don't have access like we do.
You know,
everybody still has to go out and work.
There's no online working in,
in these other countries.
They have to actually physically go out
and do their job.
Um,
you know,
ideally,
um,
Isaac,
I suppose for me and you,
it would have been
better
if both of us had been able to meet,
um,
if both of us would have been able to have really,
I think,
held hands.
Um,
and just felt,
you know,
not,
not even needed to say very many words but really
felt the energy.
Um,
and I think this would have been a way of
actually honouring
our ancestors,
honouring our backgrounds,
um,
and doing this interview in,
in a very different way
to the way it was,
um,
been done now,
because the way we're doing now,
although it's for convenience,
is a form of whiteness.
So we're,
we're kind of doing all of this stuff.
You,
you can't be
somebody that talks about this
and then benefits from that.
We have to try and understand
where we're benefiting from whiteness
and how it is that we can help challenge some of that.
You know,
when I,
when I see
you
and,
you know,
like for today,
you've,
you've got a lovely top on.
Now.
That top is not a distinctly British white
kind of top,
and you don't see very many people on the street walking with it.
But actually people who are unashamed of who they are,
will,
will bear what it is that they want to wear,
and they will
walk out the house and they will do all of the things that they need to do
in that clothing
because it's their identity and it's a part of them.
And in some way,
it's also,
um,
you know,
a two finger salute
to,
to white people to say,
screw you.
This is me.
And,
you know,
whether you accept it or not,
I don't care,
but I accept myself and that's all I need.
So I think
when we are doing this,
I think,
you know,
some of those pushbacks are that
it's those kind of
quiet ways of people
changing the tone of their voice when they're speaking to us.
You know,
whenever I speak about racism,
I always get the kind of the pity,
oh,
that's that,
I,
I'm so sorry about that.
I don't want your apologies.
I want you to bloody do something about it.
That's not gonna help me.
And you portraying me as a victim.
Versus actually
somebody who has,
who,
you know,
I,
I don't even say this,
people always say,
oh,
you've got such courage,
you know,
oh it's so nice.
Um,
no,
I'm just speaking the truth.
And if that's courageous,
then,
wow,
I'm courageous,
but actually,
I'm not courageous.
I'm just telling it how it is.
You know,
you guys living in your deluded,
you know,
castles,
um,
in,
in kind of loving your whiteness,
it,
it's you
that
I feel sad for.
It's you that I should feel pity for.
Um,
but I,
I think this is the problem,
you know,
you have white people.
That have gone into different lands and the perfect
example for me is not even going to.
Places like Africa and India,
it's actually going to places like Spain,
you know.
Everybody loves going to Spain,
don't they?
All the white people love going to Benidorm.
They love going to kind of all of these kind of countries where actually,
what,
what's interesting,
and I don't know if you've ever been there and I wouldn't,
is that when you go to these countries,
they all speak English.
Oh wow!
So they've gone to Spain.
For a holiday,
they're buying property,
they're doing all of this stuff.
And they won't speak a single
bit of the lingo.
They want to speak English.
So now you've got vast waves of Spain actually just pure English.
Now,
then you fly back here.
And you look at all the rhetoric around
people who are assimilating and being white.
You know,
one activity that I remember doing with,
um,
Hamid,
who was also on the video,
um,
and who I know really well,
um,
he,
he had to do this activity
with all of us,
and I can't remember whether I told you,
but I'll repeat it anyway with the video.
And he said to me,
he said to all of us in the room,
he said,
Oh,
I really want to talk to all of you about
hard to reach
communities.
Um,
could you,
um,
all get into a group
and tell me,
um,
who are those hard to reach communities?
And um
I went into my group
and everybody said,
you know,
we had Nepalese people,
um
we had uh gipsies,
um.
And then they came up to me and I said white people.
And they said,
what?
Sorry,
and this woman actually looked at me like perplexed.
She said,
what?
We're hard to reach,
and I said,
um,
yeah,
you are actually,
she said.
What?
That's like what?
I,
I don't get it.
And I went,
oh well let me explain it to you.
So I said,
so basically what it is is I'm looking for a white friend.
And,
um,
I really want a white friend.
Uh,
but the problem is that,
you know,
whenever you guys say,
oh,
why don't you come up to my home,
you're all drinking alcohol now,
because of my religion,
I don't drink alcohol,
and the smell of it really makes me wanna
vomit.
So I can't really come into your homes.
Um,
oh,
you want to meet us publicly,
why don't we go down to a pub?
So it's more alcohol.
So I,
I can't do that.
Um,
you know,
why,
why don't we just kind of meet without,
without alcohol kind of fueling your evening.
Um,
you know,
I,
I feel as though you're hard to reach,
and I said,
simply for the fact is,
first of all,
you make it very inhospitable
for people like myself,
um,
to be your friend.
Secondly,
you know,
what's good is that,
you know,
I've come over to this country.
I've learned your language.
I live in one of your types of homes.
Um,
I'm already in this country.
Why don't you want to be my friend?
You know?
Um,
but you want me to conform even more.
And I've already conformed a lot.
I've made a lot of sacrifices.
I don't speak my language anymore.
I speak yours.
I live in your home.
You don't need to go abroad to find a friend.
I'm that person.
But you still don't want to be my friend.
Why not?
And that's because you are hard to reach.
I'm not,
and.
At the end of the activity.
All we got was,
I think Hamid was
like,
oh God,
I love what you've just done there after you've you've flipped it all around.
And I said,
that's exactly what I needed to do,
because actually,
these white people are hard to reach.
Whenever you talk to them
about racism,
about anything to do.
That's outside of their white comfort zone of of being in power.
You immediately come against this force.
And I think those are hard to reach.
So I,
I think when we talk about these so-called
communities that are hard to reach,
I think it's the white people that are hard to reach
because they don't wanna change.
They don't wanna make any allowances for people like ourselves.
And,
you know,
when one person's
pain
is worth more than somebody else's pain,
you know,
we're we're seeing people.
You know,
being massacred on,
on a genocidal scale.
We're looking at pictures of people being put into,
um,
plastic freezer bags
to say that that's a person.
Like,
just imagine being a parent and actually,
or,
or having a,
a sibling
or being a child of somebody that's in a carrier bag.
Like that's,
that's your,
that's your person.
That,
that's your blood,
that's your flesh
in there.
And that's how they've been buried.
Now if
white people.
Interestingly can look at the world like that and not feel a single thing.
Because they haven't.
Then
how the hell do we ever talk to white people about this?
And why is it
that
when we look at things like the Holocaust,
the Holocaust for Jewish people.
That
that is something that everybody seems to like,
oh my God,
never again.
This should never ever happen again.
But we're seeing it happen to people
who've got more melanin in their skin,
and that's OK.
So,
yeah,
I,
I,
I just think that co-production.
People I don't think are ready
for that conversation,
um,
because it's too uncomfortable.
And what,
what can they say apart from sorry?
And that's not what I want to hear.
I don't wanna hear sorry.
I want to hear,
OK,
how are we gonna make this better?
How are we gonna move forward from this?
What are we gonna do
to try and help support you so that you
are,
you know,
of equitable status.
Within our organisation,
how are we going to do that where
we're not going to stop you from speaking?
How is it that we're not,
you know,
going to
steal your ideas?
What,
what things can we put in place
to make sure that you're respected as a person?
And let's not conflate
that because you've got a mental illness,
that actually
some of that is mental illness.
It's not really real.
So profound and
I,
I just wanted to.
Yeah,
I,
I think.
The stuff around the Holocaust and the stuff around
the genocide,
and the conflict in Israel
is very pressing um.
And I know that you're someone that's against all forms of oppression.
I just wonder
If we're not ready,
like,
how do we ever make a
where,
where would you tell us to start?
Like you're
an expert in co-production,
where,
where,
where can we start,
Al,
cos uh it's so big.
I think,
I think actually we need to start with the organisations.
Um,
and I think,
you know,
I,
I think we're talking about trying to,
for example,
let's make our production collective better.
OK.
Well,
do you know what UCL is doing to people
um who are protesting?
Do you know that UCL takes money from Israel?
You know,
do you know any of this stuff
beforehand?
So
the organisation that we're talking about,
although we see it as as somewhere that we should be thriving in.
You know,
unintentionally,
I suppose is the word I should use.
Is
is helping massacre of people.
So,
if they're already doing that,
How do we help support those systems?
To not be reliant
on things like that,
you know,
how do you explain to them,
because actually
the killing of thousands and thousands of people isn't enough.
You know,
it,
it rarely.
You know,
delivers any kind of drop of anything because as we've
said earlier,
white people don't have compassion.
So why we,
why are we pleading
with them
to do all of this stuff?
I think we need to be very strategic.
I think we need to think about
how we first of all,
you know.
First of all,
don't accept
money,
um,
from Israel.
Um,
how,
secondly,
we in co-production
can actually look at the way that we're
being affiliated with people,
because people won't work with us if we're affiliated to,
to genocidal crazy men,
basically.
Um,
that's going to take a knock
on,
on anything that we do.
Um,
I think thirdly,
we also need to look at being more sustainable.
So that we can actually create
our own ways of working.
Um,
4th,
I'd also say that,
you know,
looking at co-production collective,
um,
although I see people that are genuinely nice,
I also have I also see people that don't know anything about
racism,
um,
or
who I don't feel as though I have
the necessary skills to be able to.
Discuss
racism,
you know.
You have,
you know,
I'm going to say something here,
so it's and it's not gonna come out nice because I'm trying to make it come out nice,
but it's not.
You know,
Nick is
has got
a partner of colour.
Um,
you know,
you've got,
you've got George who doesn't really truly kind of understand
how kind of racism really plays out.
Um,
you've got Christina who
It is very much
um kind of slightly away from the issue and
trying to understand it and trying to grasp it.
Um,
you know,
you don't have real people to experience it.
You don't have real people,
you know,
they get pushed back for other reasons,
maybe because of gender
more than anything else.
But
Are they really people that
Can really talk to us about this,
you know,
can they,
can they learn?
And then when they're learning,
actually.
practise what they preach.
And I'm not really seeing that.
I'm,
I'm seeing some of it from Nick.
And I'm seeing that she's really trying,
and I think
I've had big conversations with her about
her child,
you know,
because obv