Report transcript in: YESMIN Talks About Co-Production

Please Report the Errrors?

Thank you for finding the time to speak for me.

Can I get you to introduce yourself,

please?

Sure,

I'm Yasmin,

a public patient representative,

um,

on the NIHR Academy.

I'm also a co-producer,

um,

member at the UCL Coro Collective.

What does co-production mean to you?

Co-production means.

Working in equal partnership for mutual benefit.

So having all stakeholders

on the table.

Working

together

throughout the whole journey and not just parts of the journey.

We are exploring what racialized global majority

of people experience in terms of co-production.

So can I ask you,

what's your experience been of co-production as a Bengali woman?

Co-production as a Bengali woman,

initially I was weaning myself into it

and I did find it quite

Intriguing actually,

but.

When I realised it was co-production.

I realised how

much my words meant to the group,

whereas usually,

Uh,

The public or patient or service users,

they're on the backbench,

and then you hardly hear their voices.

when I did this uh co-production work,

I realised like,

hang on,

they're listening to me,

you know,

my,

my voice counts,

thoughts,

my perspectives counts,

and I thought my

um ethnic background might

Uh,

be like

some people might be judgmental.

But then I realised,

actually,

there are so many other people from diverse backgrounds.

we're all on the same boat together,

you know,

bringing our own perspectives and even so,

bringing the richness of our ethnicity onto the,

um,

onto the table,

I would say.

Many people have spoken about some of the challenges they face

in co-production because of

their racial identity.

Like,

have you had any experiences that.

You feel could have been different.

Like good,

bad,

or?

Yeah,

like I'm just,

so this project's really exploring like what the experience of racialized people

are,

or it has been in co-production.

And people have talked about some good stuff,

people have talked about some

not so good stuff.

So have you had any experiences where

race has played out in the co-production?

Um,

I'll be honest.

On most of the co-production projects that I've been on,

there's

been

mainly white

people

on the um panel

or or the group.

And I did feel

Like the sore thumb,

you know,

I did stand out like a sore thumb,

and

also I realised like,

So I'm a Muslim and I only eat halal.

I don't drink either.

So when they were in person,

um,

group meetings,

my dietary needs weren't catered for

because I was the only Muslim there.

there would be like chicken and things like that,

and I would always have to opt for the

veg dish,

and I'm not veg.

I love my poultry and I love my

um whatever.

And also the desserts would have wine in it and things like that.

So,

you know,

that was,

that's just a little aspect

of being

different,

how it,

how it impacts the whole group.

Um.

And also people are,

a lot of people are unaware

my cultural backgrounds,

what it really means,

and,

you know,

they have presumptions and they have assumptions of

you wear,

you wear a scarf,

you're oppressed,

you know,

that kind of thing.

But,

you know,

so a lot of people needed a lot of um educating.

Um,

and it was,

they were like,

they had,

they raised their eyebrows like,

oh really?

Is that how it is?

So,

you know,

so there was,

there was,

um.

I wouldn't say

there was discrimination,

but on a in a positive way where they wanted to learn.

How does it feel

always being the teacher

of other people around

your like cultural competency or your needs?

Sometimes,

I mean,

I love learning.

So I love

learning.

And that's why I love meeting new people,

because they bring so much knowledge and I,

I learned so much from them.

So when people ask me about my background,

I love sharing.

And,

and it's like enlightening them,

just how I would feel enlightened about

certain,

um,

ethnic

dishes,

like I've never heard of.

And

And um

So when they say,

oh,

try this,

this is called this,

you know.

It's it's um how do you make it,

you know,

it's,

you know,

it's really nice.

You learn something new.

I know I always go back to food because I love food.

Tell me about the food analogy,

like what,

why is it important

to approach co-production

and,

and think about um diversity?

Yeah,

like I said,

uh,

I think,

I don't know if you've heard about my potato analogy.

Um,

that was something that I came up with,

because somebody asked me,

what's diversity?

And if I was to tell them,

they wouldn't understand.

And I like,

because I'm a visual learner,

I like to teach

like that,

or even

I would expect people,

I would want people to imagine visualising their,

in their head.

So I came up with this potato analogy.

And I said,

like,

say,

uh,

should I tell you about it?

OK.

So,

um,

so what I said was,

if I get a bag of potatoes,

and that bag of potatoes could be,

could represent an issue

or a topic or whatever,

and it's the same bag of potatoes.

And if I was to share those potatoes amongst

the people in the room from all different um

backgrounds,

different paths,

different demographics,

um,

ethnicities,

and,

um,

career paths and all that stuff.

And I give

a potato to every single one of them,

and I ask them to make something with it.

And then

you would hear all sorts of different

things being made with

those potatoes.

And it's amazing because

you wouldn't think

that potato could be made into so many things,

including a stamp,

including a

And I'm a meeting go

Hoani.

I'm a meeting when record horo.

Um,

so I asked this in a,

in a conference actually,

and one of the professors said,

well,

actually,

I'm not going to make anything with it.

I'm going to hide it and get my granddaughter to find it.

that showed the different perspectives that people bring.

That one bag of potatoes,

shared that to different people.

And then you tell them,

bring it,

bring your ideas on what you've made with the potato onto the table.

And you'll see what one bag of potatoes,

so the one Topic,

one issue given to individuals can bring back,

and that's diversity.

It's bringing people's perspectives.

Um,

yeah,

and I learned so much things,

so many,

um,

food items that you could make with potatoes.

Hot pot is one of them,

which I never knew about.

Can I ask you,

like,

uh,

there's a really good knowledge about why

we need to

ensure that we're being diverse in approach.

Like what's

your experience been compared to your white peers in co-production,

so do you feel like,

Your opinions are as valid,

do you feel that you have the same experience,

um,

a lot of people talked about like,

um,

they don't necessarily feel they,

as a racialized person have the same experience.

Um,

and

so I'm wondering about like,

what has your experience been?

When,

when initially I I came in,

I had to build myself and I had to make myself people had to,

well,

obviously I came in as a black canvas,

and then I built my reputation with the things that I shared.

And after I had shared certain things,

people learned about my capacity.

And after that,

I realised that my voice was actually taken seriously.

My thoughts and perspectives were taken very seriously,

whereas initially it was just like somebody who's just come to join,

you know,

OK,

we'll have,

you know,

give,

give an introduction.

What's your name,

blah,

blah.

But then when I started speaking and I give,

and I started sharing

insights and experiences,

um,

people realised that I'm,

I wasn't

joking or I'm not a,

you know,

I'm not just

speaking.

I mean what I say and they are

fundamental to my,

my beliefs.

Um,

and so I started growing my reputation in that sense,

um.

And after that,

um,

and I'm still learning,

and I'm still growing,

still progressing and developing.

But after that,

I realised that

people do take me seriously now,

um,

because of the things that I say and the things that I share,

and my perspectives.

And usually my perspectives aren't only my perspective.

I usually,

uh,

vocalise the voices of

the,

um,

unheard.

So the people in my community.

I would speak,

I would speak on their behalf because they either

have language barriers or some sort of barrier,

hence they're not,

um,

In co-production themselves,

but I make sure that their voices are heard.

Can I ask you about,

cos I know we,

we've had a conversation

um.

And

just to say this,

we can anonymize this,

we can use this story in a variety of ways.

Um,

like I know you expressed

some.

Concern over being looked over for particular roles

um that you you had applied for and other people

had applied for that happened to be white peers,

like,

would you share that with me cause I think it's really important in terms of how we,

So I won't name any institutions because I am affiliated with many institutions.

Um,

but I will share an experience which has been very disheartening for me.

I've been with this organisation for 3.5 years,

and every year there's an away day,

not away date,

it's for,

um,

training purposes.

And every year I've applied for it.

I've applied to be on the away day to

better myself so I could deliver a better service for the organisation that I

was in.

And

consecutively,

I was declined on 3

occasions,

3 years in a row,

I was declined.

This year,

I said to myself,

I might be an idiot,

but I'm gonna try again.

And the only reason I tried again is because for the past 3 years,

when I got the results,

because it's a peer

group,

so we,

we have our little WhatsApp group,

so we know who's getting selected and who's applied and all that.

So,

one moment.

My husband's trying to help me out with the dishes,

but I just um told him it's too much noise.

Um,

so,

so in the WhatsApp group,

I realised,

uh,

the same couple of us apply because we,

we,

we make that time to,

you know,

develop ourselves,

and others just aren't,

don't have the,

they can't commit to that time away.

So every year,

the same

white

gentleman

gets picked.

And that gentleman,

Isaac,

I trained,

I trained that gentleman

when he initially came in.

Um,

I trained him to,

uh,

become,

I'm not gonna mention the post and all that stuff.

And then

it turns out that every year

he's a white gentleman and he gets picked.

On,

uh,

22 years in a row,

he got picked.

Um,

first year,

he wasn't there.

So 2 years after he came,

he was picked.

So this year was his 3rd year.

And when I found out that

he's getting picked again,

I inquired,

and I said,

what's happening?

If anything,

I know I have the

uh uh skills and the qualities.

To be on this day,

I can do this job,

I can do it,

um,

and if anything,

if I am given this opportunity,

I'll deliver a better service for you

and your,

um,

fellows or whatever,

you know.

And they said,

well,

and I said,

why is it?

Why is it that I'm not being picked?

Um,

and they said because you don't meet the criteria.

I didn't go into

asking what the criteria was,

because to me it seemed like the criteria was you had to be white.

Because

I mean,

I don't want to blow my own trumpet,

but I have a lot of,

lot of experience.

I have a lot of

that you can never have enough knowledge,

but I do have

knowledge

in the area that I've applied to be on.

Um,

so why have I not been selected?

And in fact,

when I saw the pictures,

not a single Asian person was there,

Isaac.

There was one black lady.

There was one black lady there,

and I don't know how she ended up there.

Um,

and I'm very happy for her.

But that was the

You know,

Those,

and,

and so now I'm beginning to think,

what's the criteria you have to be white,

you know,

I have nothing against white or I have nothing against anyone.

All I believe is

equal opportunities.

Your,

your skin shouldn't

determine whether you get a job,

your skin colour,

um,

your ethnicity,

your,

uh,

sexuality,

none of that should,

but your qualifications,

your experience,

your knowledge,

all those things should

But anything other than that,

no,

you know.

How did it make you,

how do you feel knowing,

like how does this make you feel as someone

so knowledgeable about co-production that is just getting blocked?

you know,

honestly,

Isaac.

When I wasn't selected,

I was very upset,

but then I thought to myself,

well,

you know what.

They're losing out.

They're losing out by by not embracing diversity

because they're losing out on knowledge

that they could have gained via me.

Um,

the.

You know,

the Bengali cultures and all that,

all those things,

you know,

they're losing out

and

I always say

the,

the more the merrier,

especially if it's diverse.

You know,

I totally believe in diversity.

I mean,

I have family members that have married into different ethnicities.

So it,

I'm totally comfortable,

um,

you know,

and,

and I love it more than anything.

And when it's in co-production,

it's,

it's a family.

It's a journey

together,

you know,

from the beginning all the way to the end.

What

do you think we need to do?

In co-production spaces to tackle

racism and

oppression,

like how,

how do we really

tackle it,

like,

What are the,

like your top tips,

cos you're so like knowledgeable,

like how do we have these kind of conversations?

I would say training

workshops and um hands-on activities.

These 3 things,

um.

They can do wonders.

You know,

recently,

I was in an activity,

uh,

in a meeting where we had one small activity,

which kind of brought everyone together,

away from the PowerPoint slides,

away from the,

uh,

sheets of paper,

reading and all that stuff.

We actually

played about with Lego.

And

It just,

it just shows that,

you know,

we can all come together,

given

the resource,

given the resources,

the right resources,

given the right space and time

and

having that diversity in the room.

It just makes you realise that

it doesn't matter

whether you're a man or a woman or this or that,

you know.

At the end of the day,

it's you.

You're bringing yourself exactly the way you are.

And that's what's important.

So with the Lego,

we were told to,

uh,

sit back to back.

And then,

so we,

we have the same number of Legos.

I had the same number for Legos,

and he had the same number of Legos.

And,

and I did this with a white gentleman.

He was lovely.

And so I had to direct him to build this Lego that

I had my one was already made in a certain way.

And I behind him,

I had to tell him,

you need to put this like that,

this like that.

And he had to follow my instructions and make exactly

what I had in my hand.

And initially,

sorry,

he told me first,

and then we swapped roles.

So when he told me,

I got it all wrong,

because

we were just,

I wasn't allowed to ask questions.

I only had to follow instructions.

So he said this,

I wasn't allowed to say,

Is it the blue one or is it the right-hand side,

or is it the left-hand side?

Um,

I just,

all I could say was,

yes.

He would say,

have you put it on?

Yes.

Have you done this?

Yes.

That's all I could say.

And I didn't obviously match up to the,

um,

piece that he had.

And then we swapped over,

and he was allowed to ask questions.

So he was allowed to say,

so hang on.

So the red one goes on the right side,

right?

And the yellow one goes on the left side?

And I could answer,

yes.

And then afterwards,

he made exactly what I had instructed him to make.

But that was because he was allowed to ask questions.

And that activity really built that relationship.

It was a small activity,

it was like 1015 minutes activity,

but everyone in the room after the activity

became friends

because we were having that interaction,

the 1 to 1 interaction.

And helping each other to do.

Our goal was to make this thing

together,

you know,

I was giving the instructions,

he was listening.

He was giving the instructions.

I was listening.

And we did it,

you know,

we tried it this way,

where I wasn't allowed to ask the questions,

and then we,

we did it where he was allowed to ask questions.

And how it worked out.

So it's best

that when somebody's dark,

we should have that door open for questions

and,

you know,

to,

to make sure that our communication is spot on.

Yeah.

Can I ask you,

so you're,

you do a lot of co-production.

How many people in co-production spaces,

um,

sound like you are from your community,

look like you,

so,

are there other people

like you in the kind of co-production that you do?

No,

not a single one.

No.

But,

so,

so I'm Bengali,

um,

and I haven't come across another Bengali,

um,

in any of my co-production workspaces,

but I have come across Indians,

I have come across Sikh,

um,

so we,

we still fall in the South Asian category.

So I know I,

I guess,

you know,

I have,

but I haven't seen.

Many with this on

So,

um,

you know,

unless I've missed it,

um,

no,

but I've seen other South South Asians.

How many

do you think,

uh,

thinking about the,

the people that lead

co production spaces,

are they typically South Asian,

are they so is it diverse like in terms of facilitators.

Uh,

the facilitators,

no,

they're never from the South Asian community,

no.

No,

never.

Um,

But,

but

this um organisation wanted to work with the collective,

and they were

very much.

Bangladeshi uh group

that wanted to um embrace co-production,

we kind of worked with them and they were the only group that actually

Approached us

No,

actually,

they have been,

sorry,

Isaac,

I'm lying.

They have been

there the um cancer research group and

um.

Housing.

Yeah,

so,

yeah,

there,

there have been actually,

oops.

There's been two in like how,

like your long journey of co-production,

two experiences of

racialized groups.

So yes.

OK.

So can I ask you,

like,

and I want us to get to like,

um,

like the space that,

so.

How inclusive really is co-production

for racialized people?

Like,

is it really inclusive?

Has it got some way to go?

I think it's about um

Advertising

in the right places.

So if you were to say,

if you were to catch um say

Uh,

people from ethnic minorities,

especially those,

say,

for example,

are focusing on pregnant women from

The Bangladeshi community

that have come from Bangladesh and are

in this country,

or are they're quite new,

like 5 years or something.

Um,

they're pregnant.

Now,

in order to

find these ladies,

you won't find them on Twitter.

So advertising that post for,

for recruitment on Twitter

won't be ideal for them.

But a way to get them.

is through WhatsApp

and by word of mouth.

Because when I,

especially South

South Asians,

there is a trust issue.

And so when people,

when somebody,

for example,

if I say to someone,

there's a workshop going on,

we need to we're looking for someone like you,

your voice,

your voice and your um

um perspectives are important,

they would come along.

And then,

you know,

so whereas if they saw a Twitter,

if they saw a Twitter post or if they saw um a Facebook post,

they just flick past it.

You know,

because of the trust issue.

So it's about reaching the people via the right channels

and whether it's the gatekeepers,

whether it's a community connector,

whether it's your midwife,

GP,

you know,

it's finding the right channels to

Uh,

pull out the,

um.

Uh,

people that you,

you're looking for.

And not actually like a and

really.

Oh,

so I'm wondering,

like,

your experience of co-production,

do you think co-production

has,

do you think racism plays out in co-production spaces?

I'll be honest,

I don't,

I think people co-production has come really far,

that.

People are embracing diversity.

It's not as bad,

like I said,

initially when I came in,

say like

uh 4 or 5 years ago,

4 years ago actually.

Obviously it was new to me.

It was new to a lot of people.

it was hard navigating and then because this is a new thing,

how do we,

let's start with what the people that we have already,

you know,

this co-production journey.

And whoever was,

you know,

wants to jump on board,

OK,

fine,

you can come on.

But then as when time went by,

people realised that

that the richness of different voices,

that the,

the richness of data that they're bringing in,

um.

And especially

relevancy.

If you're going to

uh do research,

for example,

um diabetes on

in,

in Indian

women with specific like with three children,

for example,

you know,

you would need,

you would need to really

find your path to recruit them,

isn't it?

You,

you know,

you,

you.

Yeah

You,

you would,

you would need them on the,

on the panel on in the group

to get,

you know,

to get the information.

You can't get this specific

information from a white lady who's already in the group.

So,

so how,

making your research.

Um,

relevant is via the co-production process.

Even the,

even like the question for a researcher,

what should I research on?

If it's co-produced,

you know that

that research piece of research is going

to be relevant because it's been co-produced.

It's something that people want to

Um,

better develop or,

you know,

enhance.

How do you think that we could,

many people have spoken about

racism,

misogyny,

all the things that

play out in co-production spaces,

maybe being the only brown person,

maybe being the only black person in that space.

How do we ensure

co-production is truly anti-racist?

Like,

what

would you do if you

were gonna be leading co-production,

making sure that it's fully inclusive and anti-racist?

This is a really tricky one,

and it's quite lengthy as well.

The process would be very lengthy,

but I would suggest that people do a competency test

on racism before they even join a co-production

group

to see how much they understand about race,

equality and diversity,

um.

Yeah,

I think

that would be,

and if,

if,

if they're not competent,

give them the training and then bring them on board.

Like if you're gonna.

If you're gonna be part of the process,

you have to at least acknowledge these things because they are fundamental in

um research and co-production

where everybody

sits

on the panel as equals

um with mutual benefit.

And

how do we have some of these difficult conversations when.

People don't recognise that

this is important.

So,

like,

I love you the idea of,

like,

everybody has access to anti-racism trainee,

everyone has access to,

um,

some form of like support to further their knowledge around

inclusion,

diversity and equity.

Like,

so how do we have,

like,

difficult conversation when some people don't even recognise it's a problem?

Mm.

Hm.

I would,

I actually don't know how I would approach that.

um,

if somebody doesn't know much about.

Because I have come across people who don't know much about it,

and you just

carry on with it.

They don't know,

they don't know,

let's just carry on with the agenda.

That was the approach,

but I actually don't know how.

Else

Because you can't pull someone to a side and say,

if you,

especially if you're.

I'm online

I'm sorry,

Isaac,

I don't have the answer to that.

No,

and do you think that we need to get better at kind of maybe.

Supporting people to understand,

you may not know this,

but here

like cos I in my head I was like thinking

in co-production we often talk about

creating a space where everyone can contribute,

but if your contributions.

Coming from a place where you don't know something,

how do we make it fair,

like how do we ensure that.

Racism

is recognised,

how do we ensure that.

Islamophobia is recognised has to be sure,

all the things that might play out.

We have those

kind of conversations.

I think this is a very sensitive area

where it can trigger a lot of people,

so we have to be very mindful when we approach this area,

um,

and we can't really

delve into it without

getting acknowledgement that people are ready to kind of look into this,

and they have the

uh.

Inquisiteness like to to actually

know about it.

And so the person sharing their.

Experience need need to.

Know the

the consequences and the person learning

about this

also needs to be aware and then

be aware of their self uh

unconscious bias

and,

and things like that.

And you need to have a,

a mediator in between to say,

you know,

like,

this is how it is.

I'm gonna have to go to the living room because um he just needs to um

eat.

So we were having the conversation around like for me it feels like

um.

There might be some apprehension or some things not being said,

um,

like.

Very unfiltered,

like what

do you,

what would you like to say about this,

this topic around?

Your experiences as a Bengali woman in co-production.

A Bengali woman in co-production

is something new,

I would say

for a lot of people and for Bengalis and for me especially

um.

The the whole concept of co-production

somewhat new,

so a lot of people need a lot of adapting,

I guess,

and uh.

Yeah,

not a long way to go,

I guess.

But,

uh,

Small changes are

being made and,

and that's what matters,

you know,

slowly but surely.

And do you,

when talking to me,

is there any like apprehension around

like even this conversation?

No,

actually,

there is no apprehension at all,

Isaac,

because I trust you.

I've

known you for however long I've known you for,

and I've had conversations with you and I can fully

Um,

open up to you.

I have that,

uh,

trust issue,

so that relationship,

and that's another thing.

It's so important to build relationships and co-production.

It's not a one day event that you

greet and meet and then say goodbye.

Co-production isn't like that.

It's about building relationships,

building trust and sustaining that relationship.

And,

and hence why,

um,

I was very happy

to kind of share my,

my,

um,

story with you.

Because I know you

in in the sense that we've worked together

and,

and I trust you.

And can I ask you,

because you talked about.

So I,

I know that when I'm in spaces with you,

that you

are often,

well you,

sometimes you're the only,

most of the time you're the only person with a headscarf on.

Most of the time you're the only

woman.

Most of the time you're the only

Bengali woman.

And like

we are passionate about co-production,

we want more people to be involved,

like,

so how do we move from.

This fear,

I think that

might be held in our communities,

in our.

Spaces around the involvement.

By examples.

So I,

um,

I wouldn't call myself a trendsetter,

but I am to some extent.

So when I got into co-production and I started,

I mean,

I'm well

above my mid-40s,

and for me to go into studying

after 5 children,

getting a degree,

and then now considering PhD,

it's like it's,

it's a new thing for a lot of Bengali women.

If Yasmin can do it,

surely I can,

you know.

I think I started that kind of trailblazer kind of thing,

um,

with going into

work later on in your life after

mothering your children and actually

finding,

I mean,

I've only started to learn about myself,

my needs,

and my passion

after my children all went to,

they have,

they've got their own lives.

And now it's about me,

myself,

and what makes me happy.

And I realised that it's helping people that makes me happy.

And if and and it's that,

that passion that led me from one thing to another to another,

then campaigns,

then projects and

and then research.

So it's just,

you know,

I think leading by example.

It is a big one

to show.

Uh,

other women that there are

women that look like you doing these sort of things,

you can do it too.

And if you

fast forward,

um,

10 years,

where would you like to see co-production be in 10 years?

I believe in co-production,

so I want every organisation,

um,

I feel like that's the only way to do things

because it,

it.

It works for everyone.

It's a two-way street,

you know,

and there's no hierarchy for anyone to kind of

want to climb that ladder or,

you know,

look down at somebody.

No,

we're all there as equals,

you know,

nobody needs to feel inferior or superior.

And um

And by talking to your staff and,

and knowing.

How to do things from the beget go from the beginning.

If anything,

everyone will learn

and things will get done,

especially when the relationship and trust is there.

You know,

like,

if,

if you were to ask me,

Isaac,

uh,

Yasmin,

can you,

can you come to,

um,

somebody's just dropped out.

Can you come to a meeting with me tomorrow because I need somebody.

I will go.

And if somebody,

if say like,

um,

I don't have a manager,

but if my manager said to me,

Yasmin,

and I didn't like that manager for me,

and he said,

you know,

or she said,

Yasmin,

can you come to the meeting?

And I didn't like the manager,

I would say no.

Clearly.

Yeah.

You know.

That relationship aspects really come across.

Can I ask you,

like,

one final question?

How much?

Conversations are had about the legacy of.

Um,

slavery,

the legacy of imperialism in co-production spaces,

do people recognise,

These kind of topics in,

in co-production spaces.

I don't think so.

That

is something.

That will take a long time for actually drill into everybody's heads,

because at the moment,

it's just on the surface and it's coming and it's going.

But

a lot of this,

it's about educating

people

and training people

and making them competent,

you know,

in,

in these sort of things.

Um,

so I think that that.

That's a long way

away,

I would say.

Um,

but,

but with the youth,

they're so much more informed,

I would say.

And they,

they have the eagerness and the passion to find out something as well,

if they,

and because the world isn't in your fingertips,

you can find out anything anytime.

Um,

you don't have to go to the library.

You can just,

you know,

find out on the net like,

what's this,

uh,

where did slavery start from or?

Um,

you know,

the,

the guy,

the,

the guy,

the statue that was pulled down.

Where was it?

Bristol

Bristol,

exactly.

Yeah.

So,

you know,

I forgotten road,

something was it road?

Something Rhodes nose or something.

Anyway,

um,

I wrote an article about it and I can't even remember myself.

That's,

that's what you call brain fog.

But um yeah,

people,

yeah,

the youth especially,

they can just look up something and if they're intrigued,

you know,

and they are very

Like enthusiastic

about certain things,

you know,

but

also

it's about their guidance as well,

who's guiding them.

You know,

to make to to bring that um enthusiasm.

We come out from in them from them.

So I have one final question,

you might have some for me.

My final question is,

do you think

that.

Knowing that's really far away,

do you think we need to pay attention to

understanding.

Colonialism,

understanding

slavery,

understanding all of those things in racism in

co-production spaces.

I think if we dwell on those things.

It will create a lot of issues.

Because

At the moment,

you know,

people,

there's a lot happening around the world,

um.

You get the

some

white people saying

the immigrants that are,

the immigrants are taking our jobs.

They're coming to this country,

they're taking our jobs.

And then you get the

immigrants saying,

Well,

you stole the stuff from our country,

you know,

turn our jewels back or whatever,

you know.

So it just,

it,

it can get very messy

if you go into,

if you go into that part,

there'll be a lot of,

um,

frictions,

I would say.

Because it is tit for tat,

you know,

it,

it's come to a point where it is tit for tat,

well,

you know.

You did this in our country.

Now it's our time to take,

you know,

take revenge or to take back or,

you know,

it's only fair that we're here or,

you know,

I don't know.

Well,

it's all stuff that we need to properly explore,

isn't it?

Like.

Do you have any questions for me?

Yes,

actually.

So with this um.

With these interviews,

what's the final conclusion that you,

you,

you're planning to do with all this?

So what we are going to do is create some learning opportunities for people to

learn together around making co-production more inclusive,

understanding

how um

co-production can be anti-racist,

how we can maybe support people like yourselves and other people

to lead co-production.

I think it's

interesting

to.

Knowing you like.

When you said oh I'm the only Bengay woman in these spaces,

so I know that to be a fact because I'm in those spaces with you,

so like how do you use this to create more

Bengali women to be in this space,

how do we

have,

and I suppose like.

How do we use this as learning material to

create positive change and to make co-production more inclusive?

What,

I will suggest about with your particular story is that we can.

Um,

I'll transcribe it.

I think we just use the audio

bits,

and if there are bits that we both agree,

we can use them in different ways,

but

we're not doing anything other than taking the learning,

what are the key themes.

And I,

I will be honest,

I do think there is a.

Uh,

kind of processing thing that happens with this,

like we're talking and you're processing like

experiences that are quite hard to process,

you know,

like.

And we can come back together and have a conversation.

You know,

Isaac,

I know for sure

that after we hang up,

I'm gonna

come up with all those,

why didn't I say that?

Why didn't I say that?

Because that's how my brain works.

Uh,

on the spot,

I don't remember,

but then while I'm doing other stuff,

things pop into my head.

Um,

yeah,

most probably,

I know I've missed out a lot of,

um,

Um,

very important things.

Which just kind of fly in and then fly out.

And then I feel like I'm waffling and I think I have waffled actually.

But um,

yeah,

I think if,

if anything does come up,

I will definitely share it with you.

Yeah.

And can I just offer something like I think.

Whilst processing

trauma happens to us as brown people,

um,

and I think we need to be kind to ourselves.

So look,

what I'd say is don't

think that this is the only opportunity.

We see this as a long-term commitment to the code-production collectives,

aim to be anti-racist,

um,

so thank you.

Um,

I've learned so much and so much echoed.

Um,

so what I'll do is I will

save the video in a secure place.

I'll send you the consent form and

what we'll agree for now is we'll

transcribe

and then we'll figure out.

What bits we will use,

what bits we won't use,

if we use any of it in terms of the video or the audio,

but we definitely can use the transcription

cos we want people to feel safe and

comfortable with what they put out in the world.

Um.

Can I just say also Isaac,

before I forget,

having,

um.

Um,

a versatile,

um,

facilitator

who is very adaptive

is so important,

and I put,

not two thumbs up.

I'll pay,

I'd put however many thumbs I have,

I'll put them up for Nick

because she is so.

So open,

you know,

whenever you you give suggestions,

she welcomes

um them

openheartedly and she never kind of.

Says,

well,

that's not a good idea.

If it's not a good idea,

she'll say in a way where

um you don't feel offended

um so

and and I think it's she.

Can really um make people feel comfortable.

Every single person since I've known Nick,

been about

3.5,

4 years,

I've never felt like I'm a brown girl.

That she's talking to,

you know,

I felt like one of

them,

11 of the co-production group from day dot,

and that's what co-production does.

It doesn't single you out.

Whereas other

kind of um projects that I've worked on,

I have been singled out,

whether verbally or not physically as such.

Well,

actually with the dietary requirements,

that's a big one for me.

Because I love my food,

and if I can't eat,

then I don't have the energy,

um.

But you know,

it,

it's so important to have that

the the.

The facilitator or the

person who's running

the project,

the manager or whatever,

you know.

They need to be,

they need to be able

to embrace everyone's

kind of

individuality that or everyone that comes into the room and not just,

you know,

like I I've,

I've had it happen to me,

Isaac,

where

I've got my hand up and they'll only go to.

The white lady.

And eventually,

if there's time,

oh yeah,

yes,

uh,

Yasmine,

you,

did you have your hand up?

Of course,

I've had my hand up for the past 20 minutes,

but you've just ignored me because you're picking all the other white ladies in the.

And it's not only against white,

but it just happens to be white at this,

you know,

moment.