Report transcript in: Clenton Talks About Co-Production

Please Report the Errrors?

Yeah.

Cool.

Can I

first of all get you to introduce yourself?

OK,

um,

hold on,

let me press that.

Um,

my name's Clinton Varguson,

er,

I would describe myself as a,

a black disabled,

er er person,

er,

and

yeah,

um,

co-production.

I'm very passionate

about co-production and personalization.

Mm.

Thanks,

Clinton.

So we're looking at exploring what's the experience of

people from a racialized background,

global majority backgrounds in co-production.

So what's your experience been of co-production as a,

as a black man,

as a disabled man?

Um,

It's been

The spaces that we create around co-production

has tended

to be

the um majority white

space er um but also

a quite privileged

space

uh uh for um

the

you know,

majority

in the uh in the UK so

often because of that

worldview.

And if you're coming in from a a a global majority,

especially being,

you know,

er er you know er er er you know,

black and disabled,

uh,

um,

it can be alien because your perspective is often

put down.

And

can I ask you like how

like racism,

if at all,

was manifested in co-production spaces?

We have to see,

for me,

co-production

and racism

is.

Part

our everyday

experience,

even though we might use co-production as a vehicle to hold those conversations,

we have to remember,

uh,

I believe racism

was and still is,

a daily problem,

not something we just hear about

and in,

and you know,

and it's a past.

And it's like something that you might think,

oh it's history class.

It's part and parcel of everyday life in every activity

you do as a black person,

you will

see uh either conscious

uh racism.

Or microaggression,

it's there

in plain sight.

And how do you

manage to

keep on going when

these are your experiences like.

How do you

just keep

doing what you do?

What I,

what I've learned to er to,

uh,

it's the network,

the support network that I have

and just to remind myself

er and the others who are in my support network.

That

it's not just

happening to you.

Uh,

and,

um,

to have a support network that uplifts you.

But also

That

reassures you that

we've got your back,

if that makes

er er uh sense,

for me,

a lot of people

find it very hard to talk about racism.

But racism is

every part of my living

er er um

daily life.

It's like the oxygen that I

I take.

Racism

in my face every day.

And er it it's a lot of people think about racism as

in your face.

Racism can also be about the microaggressions that

the um

the inbuilt bias.

You know,

that um er racism

has kind of

created in people's

consciousness.

And thinking

And I know you're a big advocate of co-production,

also a big advocate of,

I would say trying to get people to.

Um,

I suppose be anti-racist.

What is it we can do to create.

Uh,

a different

co-production

space around inclusion,

being anti-racist,

like what,

now what does that really mean?

For me,

we,

uh,

I call it um housekeeping,

and what I mean by

housekeeping

is.

Uh,

intentionally address the elephant in the room.

Cos we don't cocon oxygen,

I'll,

we'll get a group of people together

and they'll be nice to each other.

And

we often use community

er as

er er er er and say oh,

community

is nice to each other

and kindness.

And if community was nice to each other and kindness,

we wouldn't need

co-production.

Racism would

be a er dismantled.

And we've got the er a a a premise that,

all we have to do is be nice.

You know,

and for me,

niceness

is,

you know,

is a,

is a must.

It's not a,

a thing to,

you know,

er,

have,

it's a must,

it's not a should.

You should be nice to er to each other.

It's a must to be nice to each other,

you know,

and we don't.

Actually explain what is the behaviour.

That we wish to.

Exhibit

to each other if we're gonna talk about caring about each other.

What does that actually mean?

What's the behaviour

behind that,

and that's what I mean by

um house,

you know,

the housekeeping and the elephant in the room,

we dance around it.

All the time,

you know,

and

you've got principles like.

equality,

accessibility,

um,

lovely words that no one would disagree with.

But what's the behaviour behind it?

We haven't articulated

that for,

for me,

and that has issues

if you want to be anti-racist.

You know,

it's not,

oh,

you know,

and people try and

talk,

they don't want to talk about being anti-racist,

they don't mind talking about it

um EDI as uh you know,

um,

equality,

equity,

er diversity or inclusion.

For some people that's more palatable.

But behind it all,

even being an anti-racist is power.

And when I've been having conversations with other people,

they've shared,

like,

how racism has affected them in

their,

like,

so I see you as a leader,

and you,

you,

like,

I've known you

many,

many years.

Like,

how has racism affected kind of your

leadership role or your roles in co-production?

Um,

and would you be able to give us some examples?

OK,

uh,

for me,

um,

growing up.

Exposed me to,

uh,

you know,

racism,

um,

you know,

disability,

even when

I didn't have my physical disability,

I didn't even know when,

when I had when I had dyslexia

as an invisible disability,

it was often so I just think stupid.

So,

um,

for me,

um,

if you will,

imagine growing up

in,

you know,

growing up in parts of Birmingham.

I don't know how well you know

er er at Birmingham,

but there's a place called where I grew up,

called Balsall Heath.

Uh,

which people sometimes refer to

as Southern.

Think about

the language southern and what it,

you know,

it had um biblical

reference,

uh,

because it was,

um,

a pretty

rough,

uh,

round the edges,

uh,

I'm being polite,

it's changed now,

um but growing up,

uh,

that,

that was my playground

as a child

and.

You know,

witnessed,

you know,

um,

racism,

I witnessed how,

um,

you know,

um,

we were at the,

at the time growing up,

the capital of

the sex industry,

it was,

um,

lots of prostitution.

Was

growing,

growing up and seeing that and witnessing that

and it was a place that no one really wanted

to live in.

That was,

and it was named the ghetto,

you know,

er,

you know,

growing up,

but

that's where

my parents

from Woodrush you know,

Woodrush

er er you know,

generation moved

from

Jamaica to the UK

and um.

And they moved

to,

you know,

for a better,

um,

start,

you know,

that,

um,

it would,

you know,

help

support and rebuild

the er the motherland,

as my er

er mum and dad used to talk about it,

but,

um,

instead of when they,

how they,

their dreams and vision of coming to this country,

um,

that they've talked about um.

You know,

the streets paved er with opportunities and gold and,

you know,

that's how they saw

the er the motherland

uh but

their reality was often um

er ran into barriers of hardship,

you know,

um.

You know,

signs of um

no blacks,

no Irish,

er er no dubs,

no one would sell them

or rent them.

A house

or thing.

So you know,

our generation growing up,

all my cousins and aunts,

we all lived in,

you know,

a Victorian house,

you know,

because no one would rent to us,

you know,

if you were black.

That's,

um,

you know.

Taught me

uh and learnt me

some

hard,

tough truths about er early on about how racism can

manifest because it wasn't in

technically in law

or legislation,

but it was behaviours of people,

whether that was conscious or unconscious.

And if you just look at some of the programmes

at that time like um.

Oh,

what was,

um,

uh,

um,

love thy neighbour,

growing up and it,

it all had that,

um,

racism or undertone,

but it was.

It was the elephant in the room.

People just carried it on,

you know,

and saying,

oh,

you,

you're being a little bit too sensitive.

But for me,

racism,

yeah,

racism was that daily problem

and not something you just heard about,

like I said in class

or in history class,

cos it even robbed us of our own history.

You know,

uh,

you know,

even

when,

um.

I realised

racism at an early age when having a conversation with

the RE teacher

and they were showing Jesus

as this blue,

blue-eyed,

you know,

and I

as a kid,

because the picture that I had in our home.

He was black.

He was black

and I so I'm saying,

well,

excuse me,

sir,

uh,

you know,

Jesus couldn't be

was

because

hot country.

He had I,

you know,

and I got,

you know,

dismissed out of hand

and told to go out the

er the the class cos I was blasphemy.

And I didn't even

know what the word blasphemy er er was,

but those are small little,

you know,

reminders

of.

Your place in the world er for me and it just,

You know,

um,

and I realised it's,

it was

racism's in the air,

and it's like,

um,

pollution,

you,

you get used to it,

and especially in Birmingham

in its industrial heyday,

we had loads of pollution

and that's how I represented,

you know,

er,

racism,

it wasn't just about people being

obviously mean

or unfair,

but also.

The little geeks,

you know,

and

negative stereotypes

that.

coloured

our everyday experience.

That's what I would say,

yeah.

And like fast forward to now,

like you're in.

I think quite an important role,

um,

nationally,

being a black man,

being someone that we,

many of us look up to.

How and does it,

racism still manifest itself in co-production?

And like,

what can we do different,

like,

cos I,

I could listen to you all day,

but I don't hear people saying the things that you're saying,

um,

about we need to think about this as an everyday experience.

So how,

how do you.

Does this still happen in like co-production in the work that you do?

I'm not talking about particular organisations.

But I,

I intentionally talk about it and what I mean by that is

I explain

the everyday racism.

A classic one,

might be through,

uh,

you know,

er what I call,

um,

you know,

um,

microaggressions,

you know,

it might,

a classic one is,

um,

I have people sometimes say,

uh.

I love your hair.

And I'm not,

OK.

And then like.

Just

You know,

put their

hand in my hair and I'm like.

That's quite aggressive.

And I,

and I'll say to them,

just imagine

I come up to you,

we're having a conversation as we are now and say

I love your hair.

And they're like

What would you say?

And they say,

well,

it,

yeah,

I understand where you're coming from.

That's the thing for me,

when you,

you have to

make people consciously think.

About their actions

You know,

you don't have to

punch him on the on

on on the face,

but you consciously make them think about

would you do that to anyone and the classic one,

and I still get asked where are you from?

And I go,

Bors Salif,

I was brought up in Bor Salif,

er,

you know,

now he's got classed as Moseley.

And they go,

no,

where are you from?

And I go,

OK,

so I need to go a little bit more in depth,

er,

Borselli,

Mosely,

I was brought up in

er er you know,

Sorrento Hospital,

and they go,

no,

no.

Where's your parents from?

And I'm like,

what's that gut to?

Got to do,

I said my parents are from the Caribbean,

from a small island called Jamaica,

but that's

where,

you know,

another white person meeting a white don't

uh go where you,

you know,

where are you from then start going,

no,

where are you from?

You know,

are you,

you know,

um,

originally from,

you know,

a Swedish er

country,

you know,

we don't drill down,

but no,

where are you from?

Boy,

Those are the sort of things

uh we do,

you know,

and we still,

I remember growing up

at the micro things going,

when I growing up,

going on a bus.

Uh,

you know,

and my mum going on the bus and I couldn't sit with my mum

on the bus cos it was quite packed,

and I had to sit by,

er,

um,

an older

white lady,

and the first thing she did

was move her bag,

move her bag,

you know.

Away is far away from me,

but that does,

and that happened it wasn't just a

a one off,

that happens constantly.

You know,

even to shake your hand,

people will go,

some people,

not everyone,

but you can see it on their faces,

they don't want to,

you know,

I've had people actually do that.

To shake my hand,

not

shake it like

properly.

Those are the micro

incidents when we're talking about racism

and people think,

oh,

we've gone past that.

Have we?

Really?

And when you're in spaces,

which I often see you in spaces talking about,

we need to ensure diversity,

how does that go down?

So like,

what are you,

what are we,

what do we need to do to make.

I suppose

co-production,

the work that we do.

More accessible,

less

harmful to people.

We've got to acknowledge

the trauma

that people's experience

has,

you know,

built up with a lot of people

who um

the most

marginalised of people,

you know,

er have

had trauma within their

er er

experience

and that shapes how they view.

Uh things,

but we,

we don't really talk about that.

You know,

and that's why some people might come across as being aggressive.

Or,

you know,

because all negative

in that space,

because

their experience

of,

uh,

you know,

um,

trying to get their voice heard.

Never mind seen,

heard,

and really listened to

is a different experience from.

What I would call um.

More,

um.

White middle class

Cos our experiences are really different

from white middle class and the opportunities,

just to think about

leadership

opportunities or training opportunities.

It's there in your face,

but a lot of people don't see it.

Cause it's

Outside of their worldview,

and they think they are being fair.

You know,

but

a lot of the opportunities,

especially like leadership opportunities.

You know,

how,

how fair or equitable is it?

And do we measure that?

That's the sort of things for me,

I want to

bring

consciously into

er people's thinking.

And what role do you think our white peers and colleagues and facilitators

that are doing,

you know,

there's a lot of white people doing co-production.

We've been on calls.

We've been at events where

we might be the only two people

there

that are black and brown.

What,

what do people need to do to,

to start to address this?

Cause we can't obviously address all of this.

We,

we can't address this on our own.

And er um what I say to our

er white colleagues,

our brothers and sisters,

cos they are our brothers and sisters,

they have a role

as a,

you know,

active allies.

And what I mean by activeana

is calling things out.

And also challenging

the status quo.

I believe all of us,

it's our duty

to challenge the status quo,

but also remembering

how we challenge the status quo.

We have to do it

more subtly,

but we,

uh,

but you can still

challenge the status quo.

You know,

and I

er believe that um it's about.

Having the tools to do that.

You know,

uh uh and.

You know,

I used to er um the only tool I had in my tool bag at the time was like a

er er I saw everything as a nail,

I was the hammer.

That didn't work

because a lot of people then shut me out of conversations

cos I was too angry

and I couldn't

articulate what I needed

to pause and think.

But I just rushing

and seeing every conversation is that now,

I've got a tool that you need to listen to.

I was the hammer.

You know,

sometimes

that context is needed.

But you need more tools

in,

in your toolbox and I that's why for me.

How many,

you know,

black and Asian,

or brown faced people,

the global majority,

how many opportunities do we get

to really understand leadership and the tools needed

that enable us

to,

you know,

occupy that space.

And what are your

hopes for?

Co-production going forward,

like,

so what would you hope that we learn as a result of,

you know,

paying attention,

calling it out,

ally ship.

Me,

co-production for me is.

Uh,

um,

it should be the vehicle

to aid conversations that enable people

to live.

The fullest life possible,

but you have to um I see co-production as a jigsaw puzzle.

And you have many pieces,

it could that.

Pieces could be a 10,000 piece jigsaw,

and what I mean by uh uh

that is

we often

uh just focus on those 10,000 pieces

and forget

the bigger picture.

What is the clear picture

and goal

that we use in co-production for?

Is it

to make things better?

And if it is,

We need to understand the big picture.

From the jigsaw pieces cos sometimes we just focus

on,

you know,

the different pieces of

er er of

the jigsaw puzzle,

but you need.

All of those pieces.

And any missing pieces like

it could be LGBT and black.

And if that's not in,

you know,

in uh in part of the jigsaw

pieces.

That's a massive

er er picture missing

from,

from my perspective.

There's a lot of talk

now about kind of looking at intersectional experiences.

Like what does that mean to you in terms of co-production?

We have to,

we have to describe

what we mean by

intersectionality.

um,

we have

made it a very academic term,

you know,

er er and I'll hear people quote,

well Kimberley,

er,

Cranshaw,

you know,

uh,

you know,

the,

the third,

but it's,

how do we bring

alive

into sectionality for me,

um,

we have multiple identities.

And I'm er

what gets me um

roiled is.

Asking me to,

um,

it's like the analogy of

mayonnaise,

think about the ingredients to make mayonnaise.

Once you

emulsify it and

mix it together,

you can't separate

mayonnaise.

Now

think about that as in the terms of intersectionality.

Why should I be picking,

you know,

er,

being a man,

being black.

And my,

and my,

uh,

you know,

I can't.

I can't

separate

cause they affect every

context of

my being,

and especially in the spaces that I go into.

So it's about

understanding what intersectionality means,

bringing it to life.

My final question is like,

what would you,

have you got any key messages?

That you'd want people to hear around

how we truly

make co-production,

more inclusive,

less racist,

you know,

and I'm gonna use the word racist because

everyone's talked about racism

and not shy away from difficult conversations.

I would

class that um

I've got 5 things that I think uh

um we need to think about when we talk about racism.

Think of racism

as everyday racism.

If we think about it in that

term,

you know,

think about one for me would be racism

as a systematic issue.

It's not just about

individuals being,

you know,

prejudiced against each other.

Racism and being anti-racist,

you have to think in the big picture,

remember like uh uh the,

the analogy of the jigsaw pieces,

if that piece isn't there.

And racism isn't just about the individual like I said,

it's uh it it's built into the largest system,

like education,

employment,

housing,

social care,

you know,

and we,

we have to move

from thinking about it as.

Um,

Addressing it is case to case

issue,

systematic,

that'll be one.

Second for me would be

um.

The importance of speaking out.

And you know,

and silences,

silence in the face of racism

complicit

for a better word.

Being silent,

we've been part of

er er er of being complicit in my m,

so it's vital to speak out

against uh

injustice and challenge the status quo.

To prevent racism

from being

the everyday

or accepted in society

for for me too,

um.

3 would be about.

The power of representation.

If you can't see

someone like yourself.

I believe you can't.

You,

you know,

you can't build what you can't imagine.

So,

you know,

power of representation for me is really important.

Uh,

4th

what we've always talked about me and you and others,

sharing stories as a tool

for change.

You know,

and that could be,

um,

you know,

personal experiences like you're doing

in this case about racism,

but also um.

What do you know,

what are films,

literature,

the arts,

can it can educate us and inform us,

you know,

uh,

but also remember it influences the broader public.

How do we use it as a tool

for good?

You know,

and that would be 4 and 5

for me is about

how do we create and grow community

activism.

That will drive reform,

you know,

grassroots movements,

you know,

community involvement

are powerful forces cos I've learned so much from

the civil rights movement,

LG er LGBT

plus movement,

um,

you know,

um,

you know,

feminist movement.

I've learnt lots of

common

issues from these different movements,

and I think

that's

what.

Would help,

those are the 5 things

for me.

Any final thoughts before we come to an end?

I just.

For me,

um,

to solve,

er,

you know,

um,

or to look through the lens

of um,

you know,

being anti-racist.

Is a useful

way to look at intersectionality,

and also it helps

that multi-layered approach when we talk about

uh discrimination.

Thanks Clinton.

I'm gonna stop the recording if you're OK

with that.

Yeah.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

08/01/2025