Report transcript in: Kamran Talks About Co-Production

Please Report the Errrors?

So you should get a thing saying recording

progress.

So first of all,

can I get you to introduce yourself?

Sure,

uh,

hi,

Isaac,

I'm Cameron,

Cameron Malik,

Chief Exec of Disability Rights UK.

Thanks Cameron.

Um,

what's your experience of co-production been?

Generally,

I think uh so within Disability Rights UK it's a commitment we've made.

To bring co-production in,

I think,

without confusing it with what co-production isn't,

and

really

thinking deeply about,

starting to think really deeply about it to see

what does it actually mean to

properly co-produce

and not do it as kind of,

um,

you know,

a half-hearted attempt or

disguise it

as co-production when it actually really isn't,

it's more consultation or engagement.

And

so we,

I think as an,

as an organisation we're on a bit of a journey to say

we know about co-production,

we believe in its values,

how do we make that happen in our organisation,

and at what points.

Is co-production the right tool to be using

and at what points within your organization's life,

is it not the right tool to use and,

and.

So yeah,

we're going through that,

um,

and attached to that is not only understanding.

What true co-production looks like,

but actually,

what are the resources needed to really make it happen and enable that in making sure

that everyone you're engaging with has the ability

to engage with that process and to be,

feel,

um,

that they have value and,

um,

kind of the whole power dynamics that exist,

how do you manage all of that?

So yeah,

we're,

we're kind of learning,

um.

And we,

we,

we believe it's,

it's,

it's

something we absolutely want and should have in our organisation

based on who we are.

So you,

when

I'm asking these questions,

you,

you can

draw on any experience at all.

So I'm wondering about,

so this project or piece of work is really trying to understand how

people from racialized communities experience co-production.

So I was wondering like if you had,

um,

any views,

comments,

like how

do people,

or how are you

or how are you thinking about

kind of the racialized perspective of co-production.

So,

it's interesting that when I think about me,

just as an individual,

have I ever been actively involved in

some form of co-production that's not related to

my job or that,

you know,

an organisation that I'm managing?

The honest answer is no,

I haven't.

I've never really been approached and said,

we're doing something locally or in an area that I'm interested in,

and we'd like to co-produce that,

and we'd love you to potentially join it.

So I've never actually had the experience of.

Just being there as a participant of co-production rather than

being a chief exec or something of an organisation.

So I've not actually experienced that

from that perspective,

but what I

do know in this space,

just I've been in the voluntary sector,

not for profit sector for pretty much my whole career.

And it is

heavily dominated at.

In in in in a lot of ways by

white

people,

uh,

that is what the majority seem to be of people I interact with,

who I have to engage with and.

The immediate thing around co-production for me as

someone,

and what I've experienced is often the language that is around it,

is how that translates and what it means to someone,

uh,

from a different background

and whether

that language translates and is explained well,

um,

to people so that

people actually understand what it is.

um.

So I think,

I think,

so I personally haven't experienced

through co-production as a participant of that process,

um,

but then I also recognise that within.

The not for profit sector,

it's quite heavily dominated by

White

individuals,

um,

and certainly at senior levels,

it's predominantly white,

male.

I mean look at that kind of

standard,

um,

stereotype that we often hear,

uh,

exists in that space.

Yeah,

so.

Interesting,

like,

so I had to assumed that you were involved in lots

been invited to do lots of co-production just you as Gambron.

Um,

and that hasn't been the case.

Um,

I'm just wondering about.

Your journey at Disputed Rights UK and co-production,

cos I'm

wondering around like

you talked about power and

so when

you are

representing Disability Rights UK

or in spaces,

how diverse is,

how diverse are those spaces?

Again,

you know,

it varies.

So I was at an event

on Saturday,

uh,

which is,

uh,

a part of our leadership programme and was in a room

with,

I think it was 15 to 18

counsellors from around the country

and.

you know,

just

purely just by seeing people right and

and not wanting to make assumptions.

Just by seeing people,

there was certainly

people from Asian

black communities there.

Well,

sorry,

there was one person there,

um,

out of 18,

um,

who was visibly from a different culture.

And so often you do find yourself in spaces

where it's not as diverse as you'd want,

or you what you think it should be.

Um.

But

we certainly within DRU UK we're making real efforts to try and

make sure that we're actively reaching out,

that we're actually trying to communicate and listen to

those diverse communities,

and you,

that's work you have to do.

It doesn't just happen,

um,

because if it was just going to happen,

it would just be there already,

and the fact that it isn't

means that

the way that we communicate and the the the

messages that we give and what we represent.

Doesn't speak to particular communities and people from particular backgrounds,

so you have to be.

You have to proactively do that and engage and listen and understand

the perspective of those individuals and why they choose not to engage with you,

or what their

experiences have been when they've tried to engage

either with us or with other similar type organisations

and really listen to what they're saying,

what that experience was and make sure that.

That's a learning point for us to say how do

we make sure we're just not repeating those issues and,

you know,

we're,

we're doing things around that by

uh.

Having,

for example,

a a group around um intersectional DPOs,

uh,

so actively engaging with it and actually really listening and

allowing them to be.

Angry and to show frustration and.

And,

and kind of

delving into what that's about,

and where that's coming from,

what do we need to do,

and how do we,

how do,

how do they help us

to,

to drive the process forward,

um.

That's that,

that's what we're doing,

yeah.

Yeah,

it seems like you're certainly on a journey.

I'm wondering about,

and

please do feel free not to answer this.

Have you,

as a leader and as a,

um,

brown man,

experienced racism

within these spaces?

And

do people share with you,

like,

experiences of racism?

Um,

cause you talked about anger and I was wondering,

are people experiencing racism in these spaces?

Um,

I think,

I think people do find it difficult to just come out,

open up and share

their experiences.

I think it takes time when you build rapport and trust

with people,

then people do start to talk about

how they've felt marginalised,

excluded,

um,

not valued,

or that they're.

That their experience

is not the right experience in that space.

So people do start to,

that takes time,

because that,

you know.

And I have to remember that when people see me,

what comes along with it is a job title.

And

Often I,

you know,

I almost don't want to share my jobs because that's almost irrelevant in the sense,

I am a

person and I'm interested in.

The experience of people from

black,

Asian,

and other kind of racialized backgrounds and communities.

And if I can help open those doors and facilitate those conversations and I want to.

So yes,

sometimes people do,

um,

but,

but.

I wouldn't say

It's a daily occurrence of people telling me that,

um.

But yes,

you know,

people have talked to me about it.

How important do you think it is to

have spaces where we talk about

race,

racism

in the work that we do?

It's essential,

uh,

growing up.

Don't remember being in any organisation where it was discussed or talked about,

or even acknowledged that.

What comes with

Discrimination,

exclusion,

injustice,

all those things,

is levels of trauma,

uh,

how you then respond to certain scenarios,

um,

how you might become

kind of introverted as a result,

or you might.

Come across as argumentative.

You know,

those kind of different polar opposites of how people respond to situations.

in organisations where I've been working,

and I've worked both in local authority,

I've worked in the not for profit sector.

I've not had that space where I've been able

to just talk about it and explore it and actually

learn myself

about.

What experiences I'm having,

um,

and why they are not

the same for everybody.

Um,

I think

and it for me it kind of mixed up with

being a disabled man and being an Asian disabled man,

those things get mixed up or is it,

is it because I'm,

I'm a disabled person,

I'm experiencing this,

or is it because of my colour?

A combination of those things.

And trying to,

and I think it's really important to try and create,

and I don't have the answer exactly of how,

how we

do that.

Completely successfully,

but how do you create trusted spaces

if people genuinely feel I can say my piece without it being

held against me or used against me or noted down as oh Cameron said this,

you know.

But actually

honest open transparency

and shared

experiences,

I think.

That's the bit that I always try and create within

my organisation where I have control of that and say.

That's really important to me,

but I hope it's important to everybody

because.

Those experiences that you've had

inform who you be who you are.

And how you are in,

in a space.

And how you behave

and how you respond to things.

Um,

I think if you're,

if you know,

when you compare that.

Someone

who walks out their front door in the morning

and doesn't ever think about the colour of their skin

cause it's not an issue.

You don't ever have to think about that.

Um,

But a lot of us have to do that all day,

every day.

Mm.

Yeah.

How does that make you feel?

Oh I

just knowing that that it's,

you know,

it can be exhausting if you.

So sometimes I try not to even think about it,

I just kind of let it wash over my head cause I just think if I spend

every day of my life responding to any.

Kind of the microaggressions,

the kind of reactions,

the comments,

the questions,

um.

It,

it just becomes incredibly draining.

And I think

I want to live a happy life.

Part of that happiness has to come with sometimes just allowing that stuff to.

Just kind of wash over you,

uh,

you know,

some people might say that's not the right attitude.

I think I,

so I,

I choose to tackle it,

but not all the time every day,

um,

cos I just want to go about my life and,

and do,

you know,

be with my family and my partner and

all those kind of things.

It's interesting cos what

we've heard in

these

20 odd stories

is that racism

doesn't.

Just exists in the workplace that people are experiencing it every day,

and there are different ways that you can respond.

And you started to talk about um.

DI UK Distribute Rights UK's journey

and these kind of spaces where we can

talk openly and honestly about our experiences.

Like,

do you have a

vision what this,

this might look like in the future

and what we might practically do to kind of have

these conversations?

Lots of people have talked about

the need for difficult conversations,

but they haven't qualified what they are.

Do you have any views on what they could feel and look like?

What you think of

when you think of

Disability Rights holding these spaces?

Yeah,

so I've thought a lot about it and

we're trying some stuff out within the organisation.

So we have just set up,

for example,

quarterly all staff meetings,

all,

all day.

So a whole day

dedicated to just us as an organisation coming together

as a diverse team,

encouraging everyone to try and come physically into the same space if they can.

But if not,

to join us remotely,

and there will be.

Sections within that day,

which will be a bit more unscripted,

it will be more kind of topic based or,

and that will,

that will take time because while there is

professional element of trust within the organisation,

within each other,

we need to now create more kind of

personal trust with with each other.

And that has to start,

I think,

by me being open and honest and kind of.

Showing a a a a a a vulnerability of yourself,

that I'm what I'm sharing makes me feel vulnerable,

but I feel that

that's important because

that gives permission,

allows people to think,

well actually,

He said this,

I should say something.

So,

I've never

shared

openly in DR UK

about racism.

I experienced from a young child from,

from a young age,

from the moment I landed in the UK

at the age of 6 and went to school,

almost on day one,

I suddenly realised,

oh,

you know,

why am I being called all these things and

being bullied and hit and all this stuff?

It's only later I,

you know,

I slowly discovered it was because I was

brown and not white.

And that kind of has gone through your life and,

and we don't openly talk about it

partly because it's painful to yourself.

And you kind of suppress these things and you hide them and you think

that's not who I want to be.

But I think that vulnerability is really important

because it shows people that actually I've experienced

that and I want to talk about that because that's my shared experience with you.

And how does that inform what the organisation does and what it says and how it.

prioritises.

That kind of

importance of that experience.

In the work that we do,

whether it's policy work or whether it's,

um,

you know,

project-based work,

whatever it might be,

it has to be informed by that.

Just as we

are very good at looking at

lived experience as disabled people,

we talk very openly about those things.

It's bringing in this additional element to say,

um,

and so you know,

it's not just.

Race

And disability,

but it's race,

it's gender,

it's sexuality,

it's the whole piece

to say we've got to be our authentic selves,

but that takes time and trust and.

Effort

and consistency and showing that we we we're genuine about it and.

Being true to that,

um.

So that that's what we're gonna try.

So we're gonna have those moments,

uh,

quarterly,

uh,

where,

you know,

the first one that we'll do

in the first quarter.

I've been thinking a lot about it,

that what I need to do is I need to feel comfortable in me saying all these things,

because it makes me nervous.

Because it,

it evokes a reaction,

you know,

that kind of physical reaction.

My physical reaction,

I know that this happens to me when I talk about this stuff,

is I feel almost shivery.

Uh,

it's almost like,

cause someone looks at you,

they think,

oh,

you're cold.

It's not I'm not cold,

cold,

but it's just,

it's that emotional response.

I think.

That,

that,

and you just I have to be comfortable with that because.

People may notice that and that's OK.

um,

but hopefully that opens the space to say actually we can talk about this,

it's OK.

um.

Yeah,

that's what,

that's what we're gonna,

that's how I see it.

OK.

Interesting,

cos I have had,

and,

and we've been in the spaces together where

racism

has come up in terms of your experience of

accessing

health and care systems,

um.

So I'm wondering about,

DR UK doing

these,

creating these spaces and opportunity.

What does this mean for

sort of

the DDPO sector?

So like,

are people,

um,

and you'll know this much more than I,

are people in

the DDPO sector

having conversations about race?

Is race acknowledged as something

that.

Is playing out,

like racism playing out in these sectors um.

well,

I think,

I think organisations certainly.

recognising it,

um.

Particularly,

I think,

you know,

there have been moments recently in history

that I brought a real focus on.

this point

and so you know,

the Black Lives Matter movement.

Has really

made.

Both DPO leaders

and their staff really think actually,

what are we doing in that space and what should we be doing about it,

and there is some

good work going on.

But you know,

what,

what you see in the leadership of

a lot of the DPO sector is that needs to also start to shift as well.

We need to see more

diverse leaders within the DPO community

who take up senior roles,

who are on boards,

and that we,

we support and facilitate and encourage that and find ways of making that happen.

That needs to be,

that needs to also shift.

Um,

because if you,

if you're thinking about it and you recognise

it and you're doing some work around it.

Well then that stuff needs to

change who you,

the organisation,

who you are as well,

cos otherwise it's just a piece of work that you did,

but it had no.

Material impact on you as an organisation.

And.

I think that's so

part of

my role and DRUK's role is to try and

Be a role model for that,

to say,

well,

how are we doing that?

And how are we

actively trying to bring people in from different communities who

maybe wouldn't have thought of working in our sector or

work with the UK.

And we have got,

you know,

there's one particular person who comes to mind,

who actually said to me that I never thought to work in this sector until

you you,

uh,

promoted your opportunity through a particular agency.

That I connect to because they,

they are particularly around diversity.

That is their main focus and because you advertised and they got it in front of me

and then I had the conversation with the advisor who said,

yes,

this is a piece of work,

and now they're working for us and they're brilliant.

Uh,

and they bring such

a different perspective,

different lens on our work.

It's,

it's wonderful,

um.

So kind of

Being the role model

as an organisation is important.

And how do you?

Cos what I've heard is like lots of people trying to do stuff.

How do you see

taking,

like,

so how are you gonna take people along the journey with you,

um,

like have you got any tips that you might.

Want to share in,

cos a lot of organisations have talked about

we need to do something,

but I haven't really thought about how the how,

um,

so.

Yeah,

yeah,

that's interesting and and so you know we're doing the piece around.

Being an

anti-racist organisation.

While it is

an internal piece of work about the organisation,

the longer term plan for that is that it becomes

a public document facing document.

This is how we did it.

This is what we learned,

this is where we've got things wrong,

and this is what we're doing about it.

And why is this right and important,

and then and,

and so.

Being transparent about where we get stuff wrong

gives permission to others to then say,

OK,

yeah,

I don't have all the answers,

and neither did they,

but they've gone on a journey.

So what we want to do is do,

do the work ourselves,

share it with our DPO community and or leaders.

And then help them make that same journey to say,

well,

you,

you know,

you're a member of DRUK

and we would like you,

kind of almost expect you to then go on this journey and we'll support you.

Um,

and at the same time trying to work with funders

to say you've got to fund this work.

This doesn't just happen,

it has to be supported financially as well with resource.

And I,

you know.

It's always hard as a leader to,

because I guess sometimes as leaders you get stuck in this thing of,

I've got to know the things I've got to do

to change it.

And sometimes starting with that blank sheet can be really hard.

Um,

which is why

we wanted to do it with external people

to come in who are the experts to tell us.

So that we don't have this blank sheet,

we actually have a working working plan to say this is what we've got to do.

And then to be able to share that openly and transparently and there's some,

there's some inherent risk in that,

isn't it,

when you share

stuff about your organisation internally to,

to the outside world,

because you might get some,

uh,

well,

you might get negative response to that,

you might.

That's OK,

you know,

we,

we don't have all the answers,

but,

um,

so that,

that's so your question was about how do,

how do we,

how do other organisations do something?

I mean from our perspective it's about showing what we've done,

how we did it.

And supporting them

A lot of people,

Cameron,

thank you for sharing that.

It seems like

there's a real focus on this,

um,

at Disability Rights UK.

I'm wondering about

the link between

history

and experience.

A lot of people talked about,

like,

history

being,

and,

and racism and.

You know,

colonisation and slavery and all those kind of things.

Are these conversations that are,

you have at Disability Rights UK like,

um,

and are people,

like how are you creating that space to,

for people to talk about,

you know,

anti-oppressive,

uh,

ways of being or slavery or racism.

Yeah.

So,

I think that's the part of the journey that we're on,

is that we have this common understanding of what our history tells us and

where this comes from.

And,

um,

so I'm very open.

So,

I went to Manchester recently and I went to,

uh,

the Manchester Library,

where there was an exhibition about

how

a lot of the institutions in Manchester and the library

and the library and the university itself is built on money

that was from the slave trade.

And it's all around us.

And

So when I came back to the organisation,

I shared that with staff to say,

you know,

I went on this

really fascinating exhibit and it just opened my eyes,

even though I kind of you know about it,

till you see it and read it and see

the documentation and where this money came from that

built the institution you're currently sitting in.

That's incredibly powerful.

And uh so kind of

just being open to sharing that to say to,

you know,

this is just important,

I just wanted to share it with people.

Um we,

we did a statement on um what's happening in the Middle East.

And that opened up a huge conversation internally because staff.

Some staff were very vocal about wanting to do a statement,

others were a bit cautious and nervous and didn't know.

Others were saying,

well,

I don't really feel qualified to make any comments because I don't know the history.

Uh,

the board were involved,

so we had everyone have a,

have a conversation and

really open to just being challenged

to say,

and even I said,

you,

you know,

I don't know

everything about the Middle East history,

but I'm learning a lot more right now because I'm actively reading about it.

Um,

so we did do a statement and that's,

that then opens up a conversation internally to say,

When is it right for us to make a comment?

But even if it isn't right for us to make a comment,

but to have that conversation if it's important to people.

Um,

and this particular issue was important to our staff because we had staff

who were from that part of the world.

Um,

and on the board,

and they had

a strong reaction to it.

And that was really important,

that we

didn't try and say,

Well,

this isn't the place for having that strong reaction because it absolutely is,

and because we're a rights and justice based organisation,

therefore.

Those issues are important to us,

even if

I mean it because with disability,

that that's our core work,

disability applies to anything and everything because it's.

It's not a particular group of people.

And so actually we can

and should have a view on things,

even from a disability lens,

but the injustices of intersectionality that people are experiencing.

So we,

we do,

and

we've got some people that are far more,

um,

well read in this area,

because academically they've done courses or they have a particular passion.

Others

don't feel,

I feel very nervous and almost scared of saying anything

because they think they're going to say the wrong thing.

So again it's that thing of what can we share,

reading material,

videos,

um.

Dramass on TV and so we try and share those with each other.

So look,

watch that,

that's a really interesting one and it's

a very good programme to watch,

um.

There's,

you know,

there's a programme on.

BBC with David Padil.

Um,

about how

How Jewish people feel that they'd almost not.

Not thought about

OK,

and that was a really interesting programme because

it opens your eyes from that perspective.

Um,

And so kind of sharing that sort of stuff internally.

Sounds really

like you've done a lot of work.

Didn't know you had a reading list,

so I'll be grabbing that reading list off you,

um.

Did you have any questions that you wanted to ask me um

Yeah,

I've asked like quite a few,

and there's lots to think about.

And then I have an offering at the end,

um.

Um,

I guess my,

is what's your hope out of this piece of work that you're doing with PGM?

What's the hope

of what you would do with it and what,

what happens afterwards.

So our hope is that we have,

um,

a bank of knowledge that we can use in

all anti-racism work,

um,

that is available to lots of different people,

so it will be,

um,

open access,

uh.

Uh,

we will have a learning and insight report,

uh,

that will

help organisations and people

of various parts of the journey,

understand some of the

experiences,

but some of the opportunities that come from having these types of conversations.

We are gonna have a,

um,

a number of learning opportunities where we're calling in wider.

Than people that have been shared their stories,

um,

organisations that are doing similar work,

people that have

not even started the work

to really understand what is happening in co-production

for racialized people,

and what is the things that we need to focus on,

cos I think.

What we,

I've heard,

particularly,

it's so big,

people don't know where to start,

and we hope to have some

nice recommendations or some.

Recommendations that people can start their journey,

plus all of this knowledge,

and actually to create

more conversation as well.

Um,

and we see Disability Rights UK being part of that and lots of other organisations.

Um,

and

it is fair to say,

Cameron,

we started off with one in 12 stories

and a video at the end

to talk to the experience.

And then we were challenged,

rightly so,

that.

Um,

more people wanted to share their stories.

So we've gone to 22.

We were having a learning,

an insight report,

um,

that came from people sharing their stories,

and they'll be having these conversations to change.

Um,

and I think we're just at the beginning,

so I'd like to give you all the answers,

but I think it's gonna evolve and be quite

iterative.

But we see,

like,

the relational aspect of this work,

so,

as the most important part.

Yeah,

yeah.

I mean,

yeah,

absolutely,

and having the conversation is really important because.

Yeah,

there's so many parallels,

isn't there,

with

what we say about disabilities,

don't just talk about it when it becomes an issue.

Just talk about it.

Because then it kind of normalises the conversation.

And there's so many parallels with all of these things,

isn't there,

wherever,

um,

there's.

Well,

you know,

yeah,

I often think it's the same idea.

Um,

about what we want to promote around disability inclusion and fairness and rights

as it is with this space as well,

so.

Yeah,

uh,

the,

the bit that I often have experienced and seen and

I guess I,

you know,

I need to get better at doing is when people

feel uncomfortable in that space,

particularly I've noticed where people become quite defensive.

Um,

Is how do you,

you know,

how do you manage that

bit of the journey where people

are personally feeling

quite protective or,

or not protective,

but just are quite defensive about what you're telling them.

That almost,

they're almost kind of dismissing it to the point of saying,

well,

that can't be as bad as you're saying,

or,

well,

I don't do that,

or I've never seen that.

That kind of that then makes it OK that

what you're saying is wrong because they've never

seen it before.

It's how it's,

it's those,

and that is what happens in those spaces.

You've then got to manage that somehow and

yeah

I think

that's where that learning is important and some.

Yeah,

some leaders who are very good at

managing that space,

helping to say,

well this is how we deal with that.

This is a good way of managing that.

Absolutely,

cos I think what

we've

found is that

people are coming with everyday experiences of racism.

Um,

and,

and that needing to be recognised,

but also when we share back,

I think there

is a tendency to.

Push back in terms of that,

or it can't possibly be like that or

it is so um.

Traumatic

people go into kind of the,

just the headspace and don't connect with feelings and emotions and

so we're kind of

thinking about that as we go through this project.

We,

um,

uh,

the,

the positionality of the project is gonna be unapologetically

what people say

is what people say,

but how do we tailor it to,

um,

make sense in various different spaces.

Um,

and we'll call on different people to help us with that,

um.

And I think there's

Quite an interesting

conversation I had with

um.

The grandchildren of some of our Holocaust survivors were

saying that when you read things about the Holocaust,

you can get into that place of,

it's so traumatic,

you,

you become numb to it,

and we're trying to,

um,

kind of work out what's the mechanism that we get people to to work past that.

Um,

how do you step in,

step out,

uh,

what's right for you right now,

what's right for you.

what conversations that we have to contain some of that,

um.

And there are frustrations both

with

wanting to do it.

As well as existing in like the real world,

like how much resource do we need,

how much time do we need,

how do we

manage a space where somebody might be,

oh we can't possibly be like that,

as well as somebody saying

every day I'm experiencing racism.

Um,

it won't be perfect.

It won't be always what we wish it to be,

but we're trying.

No,

absolutely.

Yeah.

And that all everything you've just said kind of resonates.

Absolutely,

yeah.

With what

both how you,

you,

you know,

I might feel personally,

but how,

what I've seen

as well in this space.

Yeah.

And then there's something about how

we recognise people's contributions and how it's

communicated.

So lots of stuff,

but we will reach out to everybody to ask them,

like,

what they think about.

The approach and

we're very open to,

to,

to um adapting and changing our way of being in this work.

Yeah,

yeah.

And I think there is that element of.

Also,

what do we need to do to stop this happening

all the time

and so what's the kind of.

Practical things we could do or we should be

lobbying for or we should be campaigning about or.

Whatever it might be,

how do we change some of that?

Yeah.

Future generations are not having the same

ongoing experiences.

Again,

very similar to disability.

It's interesting when you shared,

so,

like,

when you shared,

like,

and,

and then,

you know,

we've kind of

rubbed up along,

uh,

against each other quite a while now.

And when you shared,

like,

kind of your role,

and then me thinking about a sort of disability,

the disability sector,

I was thinking,

I don't know anybody.

That

Is a leader in that space that isn't.

racialized

group.

Like,

so I don't know anybody,

kind of,

and I was trying to think about,

who else do I know that is kind of in

the space that Cameron's in,

that is from a relationalized background.

I don't know anyone.

And then.

Yeah,

every,

every meeting I go to,

I'm.

Yeah,

I'm the only kind of

Racialized person there,

uh,

whether that's been the big charities or the smaller DPOs,

it's largely been white,

white people.

Uh,

so you can't really,

it's hard to then have those conversations in

those spaces because you're the lone voice.

And people often say,

oh yeah,

of course,

that's really important we get that.

But it's,

it's very different to,

oh yes,

I've experienced that,

or,

I know what that feels like because,

and,

and that's why it's really important that we.

In a small way,

within DRUK if we can bring in younger

people from different communities,

and eventually,

hopefully there'll be future leaders.

So they've had a good

grounding with us and hopefully go on to amazing things,

which no doubt they will,

uh.

And just

that thing,

you know,

when I was growing up,

yeah,

I didn't really have any role models or anyone that I spoke to who said.

I get it.

And what I actually had was the opposite,

which was

My,

my,

my dad saying to me,

you need to be that much better than everyone else.

To get

half the kind of

way up that others wouldn't actually get up.

That was the kind of thing that I had in my head.

That's how it's gonna be,

um.

Yeah,

you kind of want to change that for the next generation.

Absolutely,

definitely.

And it's just,

it's stark,

isn't it like.

Yeah,

so I think the,

the thing that I'm gonna leave with is

one that you've given us so much in your experience.

But what's the bit around our white peers and leaders that we need to

start thinking about because.

It can't be

the responsibility of racialized people or people that,

you know,

are really wanting to do this work,

how do we get people that are

not even thinking about.

Mm.

Equity,

racism,

anti-oppression in the work.

Lots to think about Cameron,

yeah,

yeah.

Are you for me to stop the recording there?

Yeah,

yeah,

sure.

And then I've got a little thing that I wanted to suggest to you.

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streetreporter

Post date

08/01/2025