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Report transcript in: Elkin talks about racism
Please Report the Errrors?
Can I get you to introduce yourself?
Hi,
my name's Elkin Atwell.
I'm a
Digital media,
artists,
um focusing on 3D printing installation work.
I live in London and I've exhibited
um in London and overseas.
Oh
brilliant,
thank you for sharing
a bit about you.
So we're exploring this idea of co-production.
And how people experiencing it from um racialized backgrounds.
So what's your experience been of co-production?
Um,
It's been a
mixture of
different emotions,
really,
you know,
talking from an emotional viewpoint.
Um,
sometimes it's been very good it's been a very good experience.
Other times it's been dismal.
Yeah,
um,
when it's good,
it's very good and it works very well,
and I think that comes down to,
um,
People
who
are
generally
open-minded,
well trained
and professional.
And we have some um.
Indicative
drive
to make the project work,
you know,
um,
where it's been
a failure is normally due to lack of experience,
um,
ego,
maladministration.
Um,
non noncompliance with,
um,
their own,
um,
mission statements or
just lack of knowledge and experience and also,
you know,
you have the elements of um.
Race that comes into it and.
What I would probably call um
microaggressions.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
Tell me about the impact of microaggressions that the
impact of microaggressions are very subtle and very um.
Deep,
you know,
because.
It defines whether a project succeeds or not and also
it kind of like.
Undermines the whole project values that you're trying to um.
Facilitate,
you know,
it could,
it could be something very subtle,
you know,
and.
When you're in a busy environment,
you ignore it,
but when you look back on it in reflection,
you can see,
you can see what's going on
and.
Sometimes
it's very intentional.
Normally,
and sometimes it's not intentional,
you can see it's not intentional the staff aren't um
aware
of.
What they're doing and it becomes custom and culture almost.
It's that thing about um institutional racism almost coming over.
Yeah.
So would you say your experience has been,
I know you talked about the positives,
so
have your experiences been?
Like,
so this idea that people experience racism in co-production,
like what has your experience been like?
Uh,
It's been
like,
where do I start?
Um.
It's been to the case where
people have,
you've been asked to supply information,
and you've done a good um
report or whatever,
and you know,
you,
you,
you've done the best that you can
and.
People
who have no experience come and say no you can't have that
and know people who have no experience
doesn't mean
they're um.
More knowledgeable than you,
just that they may have a high position than you and they
undermine and cut down what you've said and what you've stated and
your project proposal,
turning it into nothing,
a nothing project,
they can't see the implications or the impacts
further down the road
of the project you're doing,
you know,
or what you're trying to create,
you know,
up to a point where
um.
The grant facilitators look at the project and they just turn it down
because
the project all of a sudden has no value and no um.
Purpose really in
the criteria of the grant that you applicate you,
you're you're applying for,
you know,
another example is um.
People
not well.
Recently I was on a project for the summer
um
teaching
young children
and.
None of the materials I had requested.
I made the biggest of materials.
None of the materials I requested
were received.
Nothing.
You know,
and
I turned up and I did it
and I had to supplied my own materials
and everything else and
you know 11 of the things there was.
Every week,
it was for 5 week project every week,
they made promises that these materials would be supplied
and they weren't.
And it was more efficient for me to go and buy it myself.
Or
equipment and and you know,
I don't know how that works,
you know,
but um.
Put it this way,
I won't be working with them again,
and it's a sad loss for the community
because I,
because I did offer
my skills and my experience to them,
um.
And I didn't seem to realise what was,
what I was offering them,
you know,
I think they do now,
but you know,
it's just sad that,
you know,
when I whilst whilst this thing was in progress that they didn't um.
Embrace and take on board that what we're getting was a unique opportunity.
Yeah.
How much of that do you think relates to
You've been a black man.
Uh,
I'd say about
85 to 95% of it
and.
It's not only about being a black man,
I think it's about being a male.
And being of the age that I that I am.
I have the experience I have.
That's what I think it is,
yeah.
It's,
it's not just about being black,
it's about the age that I am,
I'm,
I'm a mature black man,
you know,
and
I'm an experienced black man,
you know,
I'm not,
and
I don't take very kind to be treated like a child,
so yeah.
I mean,
I,
I,
I,
yeah,
I can't imagine anybody treating you like a child,
um,
and that just.
You know,
but neither can I,
neither can I.
But you know,
once you're aware of it,
you can see it and
that's um.
You know,
no one wants to be treated like a no mark,
do they?
And,
and in terms of like the co-production and the
facilitation and all the stuff that you do,
to ensure
that,
like do you feel like you're heard.
In the same way as your white counterparts,
do you feel that you're
experiencing
Uh,
you know,
like,
how do you experience the world
in these facilities.
I'm in a very unique field.
And
My white counterparts aren't and.
I find
that.
My white counterparts
seem to be more embraced and.
Appear to be given more information that they can look into
for their own projects and myself and they're very um.
What's the word gralicious,
is that the word grabilicious?
I don't know,
but they're very tight-fisted about sharing information with me.
Like the word grabbing is just,
so
do you think that.
Yeah,
yeah,
there's a big competition cos it's a very
small um area.
It's,
it's,
it's,
it's a very niche market,
so to speak,
and um
grants that come up and funding that comes up
for arts,
yeah,
generally speaking,
are.
Not very much.
There's not very much out there,
and it seems to be a race
to
get yourself in there and da da da da do do the job or whatever,
yeah,
or do the work,
should I say,
yeah,
and.
Within those specialisms
there seem to be artists who.
Seem to make a living from it.
Very well,
and those who don't seem to make a living from it very well.
And
I don't seem to make a living from it very well,
but,
you know,
um,
again,
it's a very
niche market that I am in
a niche area,
so I should say that I am in.
And also it's,
it's,
um,
access to resources,
some of,
you know,
my white counterparts have been there
for
maybe a bit longer,
and they've got more um
reach and more networks to um.
ploughing,
you know,
but.
They're not obviously they're not sharing it with me
and they're very um.
Posted about what they do share with me in case they say too much.
You know,
And it doesn't mean that you know
everything they showed me I'm gonna jump on and run on run run to it and you know,
because that's a very niche niche area for what I'm doing,
you know,
so it doesn't mean
that but
it's just the lack of sharing,
the lack of information.
And a lack of um
I'd say participatory um.
Networking
or
working together on projects,
you can easily work together on projects.
You know,
many projects I can work together with,
but it doesn't seem to seem to be a
lot of um.
It is better for where,
uh,
protectionism going on.
And what
in your view
is the reason for that protectionism?
Sorry,
can you repeat a bit low the volume,
what in your view is the reason for that protectionism?
Um,
Well,
it's the same old,
innit,
so no,
it's um,
money and racism.
I feel.
Yeah.
I,
I,
I,
I,
I think it's the funding aspect
and the
racing comes into it on that level.
How does it make you feel?
Uh.
It's happened so much that I'm,
I've turned cold to it.
I mean
it
inside it's very um.
It can be very debilitating and depressing cause it,
cause you,
you feel
what's the point if you continuing and why,
why should I actually bother
with um.
These projects and these ideas that I have,
you know,
and it makes me feel like,
oh,
you know,
if you,
you,
you go to one place and you apply,
you don't hear anything back from them,
and you know,
you,
no one's kind of like basically sharing information with you
or.
Telling you
may maybe you should apply for this one because this one's more suited for you,
or maybe you should do a collaboration with this person or that person,
you know.
Um,
and it makes you feel kind of like a bit um.
Well,
well,
it obviously it makes you disappointed.
You feel very,
very disappointed.
You know,
it's like,
it's like,
you know,
you you you you're going to a friend's birthday party,
they've got
loads of lollipops and your child
and you turn up there and the lollipops are all gone,
and you feel like what's going on here?
You know,
kind of like,
yeah,
really y.
And this thing that really struck me was.
You said not being like,
so the impact of this is
really far reaching,
so it's about how you make a living,
how you.
Yeah,
yeah.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah,
well it it affects you because you know you,
you,
you,
you,
um.
That's how you make a living,
not obviously,
obviously you try to do arts as a profession,
you have to make a living from it
and it affects everything,
you know,
from
the way you live,
the,
the,
um.
The
outreach that you have,
you know,
to your socialising your
your
your socialising abilities,
you know.
Um,
You know,
to
even your,
even being able to go out and travel,
you know,
cos obviously you know you have to find to travel throughout certain places and
where,
where in London.
And it's
despite what some people think it is a very big city from one side to another.
It's a massive city,
you know,
and it's expensive to travel,
you know,
even a one way trip,
and you know people have
views which are important to go to you go to your partner's views or whatever,
or,
or you go to see
potential,
um,
clients,
and it takes it out of you,
you know,
and.
That's the effort in itself cos you have to gee yourself up to go and do that.
It's not,
um,
just walking or or um cavalier and say that you have to prepare things,
you know,
and
that's another um
aspect
that,
you know,
you,
you,
um.
Have to deal with
and it's not like um.
You just pick up a paintbrush or if it's not all us to paint this,
we know that,
but it's just that the ability
to um.
Speak to like-minded people is severely restricted.
Yeah.
How much safety
and
cultural safety do you think there is in in
the arts and facilitation and co-production space?
Um.
There is some
I'd say
For black and ethnic minorities.
You know,
the spaces that are available.
are good
Although
I have noticed that some of them
appear to be very
high brow artists,
yeah.
Which is a bit academic really because you know it's hard and then,
yeah,
but you know,
the,
the people
engaged in the production
of the art.
Appear to be,
I don't know it's a hierarchical system or if it's um.
A status thing but they they don't seem very welcoming.
And maybe that's because of the
inherent racism within
the arts or
maybe it's because,
you know,
it's more
protectionism,
you know.
And when I say protectionism,
protectionism
imbibes the racism also.
Yeah.
To to maintain that status quo,
I assume,
right.
And
the work that you do,
and uh and we've spoken about this before,
you very much believe in bringing people together,
collectively learning,
sharing,
co-producing.
Yeah.
But there's
this racism that you've talked about and this protectionism and all this,
it seems to be at odds with the idea of
the work that you do.
It is,
but it.
It is,
it is,
it is a bit of a dire pole,
but
what it.
What I do.
I basically enjoy what I do so much that it doesn't really
matter what I have to fight to go through.
I actually enjoy what I do.
You know,
and
It's nice to see the participants enjoy themselves and learn something,
you know,
I teach children and adults
things that they never believed that
would work and they've seen things
and hopefully I've expanded their outlook
and.
The
General
Feeling about life,
you know,
I've,
I've seen children,
you know,
all of a sudden enjoying themselves with things that they said,
don't work,
it'll never work.
I've seen adults the same,
you know,
and it's nice to get people
into that um.
Childlike learning
learning stage in their brain,
where they take things on board and they learn
things and they start sharing things and start talking
and you know art is a bit more
than
just doing an art project,
I think it's a learning experience for people,
you know,
whether it be a cultural,
whether it be a um
emotional thing,
you know,
it's a sharing process,
yeah.
Yeah,
that's really eloquent and
so I'm wondering,
you talked about the microaggressions and then you talked about the
Um
Direct racism.
So like those people that are doing and perpetrating racism,
what would you want to say to them,
like what do we need to see change in the world?
Wow.
I don't want to go into those people's heads and think about them
and what they've got going on with,
with their lives or their
life experiences really telling the truth,
but I would say
that.
Reflective.
Work
It can be very useful
for people.
Yeah.
Can I ask you why you wanted to share your story about
the experiences
as a
black facilitator,
artist,
co-producer?
Cause I like transparency and I don't,
I don't think people need to know
and learn from them.
And learn,
yeah,
people need to learn and you know,
it's,
it's not just me,
it's everyone,
you know,
and I think.
For me to share this
is
just plain and simply
useful,
you know,
when you,
when you open a
can of worms.
You just like dash it away,
you look at the worms and see what kind of worms you've got to deal with,
yeah.
What else have you,
would you like to share with me?
Uh,
I love
the work I do.
I love the experience.
And
I think we need more
art in the world and more love in the world,
and more um
effective thinking about art and why we do it and
for what purpose?
And we need to um
Share more resources,
share more skills.
Yeah.
And do you think
uh
and the way that you work can help
tackle some of these.
Inequalities that happen around people that are from
minoritized communities.
Uh,
Absolutely,
yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean,
you know,
you've got so many
um.
Different people
with different outlooks,
but when you get them to space.
A lot of barriers break down immediately,
and even,
you know,
even people from the same culture and the same race,
there's barriers to be broken down.
Yeah,
and
I think,
you know,
in the UK.
I think you're
obviously.
I mean,
black.
People
Or shall I say ethnic people of a certain age,
have certain certain experiences from the past which,
They may find very difficult.
To bridge
And I think art is a very good way
of
doing it.
And
we also have.
Young people
Who
for whatever reasons have bridges to be built,
and for the next generation,
I think once you
break through those barriers.
And people realise
that actually
we are one people
and we can share,
we can enjoy each other each other's company.
I think it opens up a whole new world of expressionism for people.
Really eloquent and powerful,
and I'm just.
Going back to like
You turning up into these spaces and.
Not being heard,
um,
not having the same opportunity,
but yet you'll fight to do the stuff that you do.
Wow,
very powerful.
I was just wondering before we come to the end of
the time that we've got together if you had any final um
views or
um
comments that you wanted to share,
particularly for this project.
I want to share,
yeah,
yeah,
I think it's important
for as many people as possible.
are aware of of this project and
Take a moment
Or to
just to reflect on it.
Yeah.
Because co-production is important,
it's not,
I mean,
most people think coal production is
going into a supermarket and
doing the self checkout or going to the cashpoint machine and
taking your money out of that a teller,
you know.
Or go to the tube station,
get a ticket if I go to the ticket office,
but there's a bit more
to um
co-production than that.
You know.
And people have to take away
something with them.
That's more meaningful and more expressive
and more
dynamic
within those kind of like constraints of um
co-production
because co-production.
Can be a tool
that can benefit everyone.
It's not just them.
The autos,
you know,
kind of thing that.
Run things or anything like that,
I think,
you know,
I've been thought that people.
Share the knowledge they have the schools they have
and.
You know,
it's a bit like a mix and match,
you know,
and
and obviously with a mix and match,
not everyone's gonna mix and match,
you know,
cos people are people,
but.
It does break a lot of barriers
and it does help people
to achieve their best,
and that's what you want,
we want everyone to achieve their best.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
I haven't got any further questions.
Do you have any questions for me or?
Uh,
not at the moment,
no.
OK.
Let me pause the recording there then,
um.
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