Report transcript in: Ashleigh

Please Report the Errrors?

Computer.

So first of all,

I want you to introduce yourself and tell me what makes you tick.

Ooh,

um,

so my name is Ashley,

um,

and what makes me tick?

Nowadays I don't know.

I'm at that middle part of my life where I just don't know,

um.

And I feel like I always drop into boring answers that

are work related or to do with what I do or

to do with,

you know.

Work really,

so it's a bit,

isn't it?

I don't think so,

but what's,

what are you passionate about?

Um,

I'm passionate about improving services for children in care,

that's like become

my ultimate mission,

um.

I work outside of work,

it seems to blur into all aspects of my life.

Um,

just because I think when I was growing up it was so taboo

to have care experience.

You really were taught that it was

something that you should not tell people,

you should be ashamed of it,

you should not disclose it,

um,

people's opinion will drop of you,

and I think I became really,

really stubborn

and I was like,

actually if people start talking about it more.

It will become less taboo and it will be more normalised.

And

so I think I've made that my mission.

So I think that's my passion is making it

more accepted

that

there are people in care and we are just

people,

and we will grow into

every range of adult out there as

normal people will.

Mm.

Wonderful.

And I'm so grateful that you're doing this work.

It's so needed.

I'm just wondering like

what's your experience of co-production been?

If I'm being honest.

I love to be

very positive about co-production,

and I think sometimes that can mask the fact that I have not had a very

positive experience of co-production personally.

There have been times or organisations or instances of positive co-production.

But in the main.

I would say that my co-production journey has not

been very positive at all,

um,

especially because

am also a professional in children's social care.

I feel like I'm always having to choose a hat,

and I feel like I've been in environments where.

I've been asked

why I have a staff badge or I've had a joke made at my expense or

I've had people's opinions drop and be told I

can't or shouldn't be doing a piece of work or

just people's tone of voice when they,

it's sometimes it's really hard to explain like the unconscious

nature of how co-production can sometimes not be positive,

but I have faced my entire career

being somebody that co-produces as well.

much stigma,

so many barriers,

um.

You know,

I've been

in an adoption panel talking about adoption and been as a professional

and been told,

oh Ashley,

you know you're too old to be adopted now.

And I was 23 at the time,

so I was,

I was really aware,

but it was just a complete,

it took away from my professional identity.

I think people

find it hard to see that somebody is able to wear two hats.

And I think I have had a whole range of

discrimination through the fact that I

identify as someone care experienced and I

identify as somebody that wants to co-produce.

So whether it be my age or whether it

be the complete reverse and I'm now too professional

and therefore my lived experience is invalid because you

can't be both a professional and someone with lived experience

in the eyes of many people,

or so I feel like I'm constantly in this space where.

I'm

Kind of pushed from all sides,

on a professional side and pushed and said you don't belong here.

In the lived experience cohort I'm pushed and said you don't belong here.

local authorities or organisations that I work with,

I'm pushed into a box occasionally of what they would like

me to bring forward,

um.

And there's,

there's been times that I've

been taught to kind of feel ashamed that it's wrong that I would be advocating

for lived experience or co-production,

and

I've been very,

very blessed that

because I'm now somebody that

enables co-production through the services that I deliver.

In my own journey of delivering co-production instead of being involved in it,

I've managed to be a lot more conscious to

how people can feel in that cycle.

Um,

but I would say,

you know,

I've been

co-producing since I was 15.

With corporate parenting panels,

um,

with fostering and adoption services,

with local authorities,

but I've been a professional

as well since

I was 19.

Um,

and it doesn't matter the fact that I'm

now nearly 10 years into that professional journey.

There isn't an acceptance yet

that

I can

be both,

and both of them are in knowledge and expertise that I

can pull on.

Um,

and I do think

sometimes the fact that I'm

a woman comes into it as well,

because I do see a lot of

lived experienced leaders.

Um,

That are male

that.

are

doing very well or spotlighted or,

you know,

working alongside government all the time or working in

um high positions or or working with organisations consistently.

And I don't see that same

equitability for me,

um.

You know,

What impact does that have on

you?

It's hard because when you're so passionate about

something and it's the thing that drives you

and you have an understanding of the way that you co-produce,

so I never

co-produce with ill intention.

And I never co-produce for my own objectives.

I only co-produce for

trying to make things better and more equitable and

trying to innovate a little bit or trying to see all the lenses that

I'm very blessed that I can have a professional lens and a lived experience lens

and use them both to try and come to answers.

I think

when you are just passionate about improving things in general.

Um,

And walls are put up and barriers are put up and doors are closed and

You're told

Which parts of your identity,

you know,

are valid

at a point in time,

or to hide,

I've been told by other professionals to hide my lived experience.

I've,

I've been told by other people with lived experience to hide my lived experience.

Even down to this is not co-production,

but I've been having a drink at a bar

and somebody's asked me about my parents and I'm not gonna lie.

Um,

and I said,

you know,

well I'm care experienced,

I don't really

see them.

And they said,

oh well,

you need to come with a trigger warning,

don't you?

You can't just say stuff like that.

And I'm like,

oh,

I can't just like what else was I?

So there's this fear that it's,

it's better to lie.

It's better to lie than be

care experienced.

It's better to lie at work and not be care experienced.

It's better to lie in your personal life and not be care experienced

because it's more

palatable

for people.

So I think you get to a point where you feel

um.

A bit browbeaten if I'm honest,

because you're just trying to do

something positive and make a positive change and have a positive impact

with no kind of um.

There's no reward for yourself in it.

You're not doing it for an outcome for yourself.

If I change housing for young people,

it doesn't mean I get housing.

If I change

um young people's access to accommodation,

it's no longer valid for me.

That doesn't do anything for me,

but it's better for them.

But

you,

you're perceived as somebody that's just trying to.

Go on your own whims or your own and as if there's something for you to get out of it.

Um,

and the only thing that you're trying to get out

of it at all is a fairer and more equitable.

Positive experience for young people,

um,

so I would say browbeating is

definitely true,

um,

on the flip side when co-production goes

really well.

And when people are open to it and when there is the right

environment with the right respect and the right energy and the right intention.

You do feel like wow this is really worthwhile and it's really working or when you

do a piece of training for a bunch of social workers and they say wow,

I've never even thought of it like that.

My my practise is gonna change because of it.

Those are the moments that make it all worthwhile,

but we are definitely in.

A bit of a rut at the minute where co-production is a buzzword.

And I don't know if everybody truly

understands what co-production means in terms of

power sharing,

equitability,

access,

um,

empowering people.

Um,

I think

co-production is still perceived,

unconsciously,

maybe,

as a threat.

Yeah,

can I ask you,

um,

so this,

one of the reasons why I thought you would be great to share your story is because

I've seen you really stand up

around equitable inequality in co-production.

Um,

and I'm wondering about

how co-production spaces make sense to

racialized communities,

people that,

you know,

like the idea of co-production is supposed to be like based on diversity,

inclusion.

This is the thing,

we.

Everywhere you look there's an EDI policy somewhere and it's a

really nice piece of paper and it sets out intention.

But the translation from intention into like action

sometimes is disconnected.

So one phrase that is my least favourite phrase is hard to engage

and

people from black and brown communities are always seem

to fit in people's lenses as hard to engage,

um,

and when you ask people,

you know,

why the representation is low,

they will say

harder to engage or more complex needs or.

And

I think that's a bit of a cop out.

I think there is no such thing as hard to engage.

I think

we haven't found the right ways to engage them.

I think there

needs to be better representation and it's the

same way we say it with for everything,

in order to attract people into the police,

the police needs to be more representative,

in order to attract people into teaching,

teaching needs to be more representative.

In order to attract people into co-production,

co-production has to be more representative.

And I think at the moment

we're not yet in a space where co-production space is representative.

Sometimes we tend to be in spaces where this lens of easier to engage

means that the same people are constantly co-produced with

and we don't really challenge ourselves to invite

people

into the spaces that wouldn't.

Usually be in them,

and sometimes it's a lack of awareness as well and I

don't think people are doing enough of the awareness raising,

especially

with black and brown communities around the power of

co-production and power sharing and what it can achieve.

have been in spaces before where I've seen

people tick off that co-production is done,

and

when I've asked if they've made sure that the

sample of people is representative of who they serve.

They will say it's who was available,

and I think

You are not yet in an equitable co-production space.

If you are from an in inner London borough

and you're in children's services.

And 80% of your young people in care are from black and brown communities.

Your co-production group should not be 80% white,

it should be representative of

the population that you have.

Um,

so I think sometimes there's like quick wins and easy wins that we're not doing.

We're not getting back to the base of who is

the community that we're serving for the piece of engagement

and who,

how do we make it equitable for the representation.

I think

sometimes people are scared of some of the

difficult conversations.

Um,

and there are difficult conversations and sometimes it can be really.

Easy to shy away from conversations that make us uncomfortable.

So,

I guarantee you if there was a

co-production piece of work that was specifically looking

at.

Why young people in care from black and brown communities have to

their fees in foster care and residential are higher.

If you said to those communities,

this is the piece of co-production that we're doing

and it's singing to something that is really relevant to them,

of course they're gonna come

and be a part of that work.

But co-production is usually about rewriting a pledge or

writing a piece of work,

or I don't see many co-production pieces work around anti-racist practise,

around,

um,

you know,

racial inequality.

Um,

and I think that's because a lot of spaces say they have EDI forums in the workplace,

but they forget they're actually focusing in on co-production.

also how you fix this,

it's not just about the people in your organisation,

it's about the people that you serve.

Have you seen racism play out in

spaces of co-production?

I have seen.

I wouldn't say overt racism.

I wouldn't say I've seen somebody say something that's really,

really blatant and obvious.

I think the way that it plays out in co-production spaces is

who's chosen for what and when.

The amount of involvement people are enabled to have,

the amount of power that's shared with them,

um,

I've

been,

you know,

in spaces where I've seen local authorities

with apprenticeship programmes for care-experienced young people

and.

People have come through

and

find myself wondering if

that's the most representative

and how they've gone through and was it

an anonymized process and were names withdrawn and

was it equitable to

to get to this point?

Um,

so I don't,

I've never seen somebody say something

that I'm like,

that is really blatant.

But what I have seen is the unconscious behaviour and actions that go

with

systemic or embedded racism.

um,

and I have seen.

People be discluded or discounted or not given opportunities to be involved.

I've seen

people's opinions not be held in the same esteem.

I've seen

people really have to battle for their voices to be heard.

Um,

So I think

People don't get in the frame of mind of like unconscious bias training.

And focused in on co-production

and

the way

that unconscious bias feeds into co-production spaces.

I haven't seen any specific training around that.

I haven't,

um,

heard of anyone delivering

some training around that.

But anything,

if you look at what racism is.

As a whole,

it is that power imbalance,

it is that systemic embedded power imbalance,

and that power imbalance is mirrored in co-production.

So you need really open and honest conversations,

you know,

I've been in spaces where.

Somebody has said

a term or a phrase

doesn't offend them.

But

actually when you look into the history of it and the background,

it offends a really large number of people,

but because it doesn't offend

them

or people that they know,

then it's seen under that lens instead of that wider

understanding of how this

could be hurtful to some people.

So I think it's,

it's

until we get to a space where we're widening our knowledge,

where we're co-producing.

Training for people that co-produce

and being really open about the fact that

anti-racist anti-racist co-production training needs to happen,

I think we'll be in the same space,

but definitely in terms of equitability,

in terms of access,

in terms of power sharing.

I've definitely seen it.

How does it feel

like now I,

I know that you're in lots of space,

so how does it feel?

Or,

or,

you know,

being in their spaces and then there might not be any

black or brown faces in there,

how does that feel,

like,

what kind of.

Thinking and feeling goes through your mind.

Well,

I'm the sort of person that will challenge it,

but I'm the sort of person that will challenge it because

generally,

not just under that lens,

when something isn't equitable,

I will speak up about it.

Um,

I think it's very,

very

frustrating,

number one,

because you feel like it's just the absolute base.

Um,

making spaces equitable,

making sure they have good representation,

making sure the broadest range of voices is involved.

It's just the absolute base.

So I feel very

frustrated and disheartened

because I know.

I can only bring the perspective,

for instance,

somebody from my background,

my heritage with my care experience.

My care experience journey is very,

very,

very different

than

a black male who came into care in his teens.

That's a very,

very,

very different journey.

So if voices like mine are really well accepted

and really well heard but voices like theirs aren't.

All the solutions that we find are fixed around

that experience instead of all experiences.

And it comes through in

the results,

it comes through in in what's changed.

There's things that

in Children's social care have been spoken about for a really,

really,

really long time and we haven't been able to find the answers to those issues yet.

Like I mentioned around why

homes for

black young people cost more than homes for white young people.

Um,

and there's stuff that

I can see from my perspective around language and the way that we write about people,

but there's stuff that I can never translate,

and it needs somebody from that heritage,

from that experience to say,

actually,

and I also think it's because of this,

and I think because when I did this it was perceived

in that way and it was written about like this,

and I think it's because I had to move more or

it's

that voice and.

My voice cannot be that voice.

That voice has to be

upheld.

So I think frustrating,

um,

especially considering how much of the care experienced community

is from racially diverse backgrounds.

It would be nice to see

higher representation in

co-production spaces.

So I have

known you to share your personal experiences about being of dual or mixed heritage.

And that thing around you always calling it out

around,

you know,

where are

the black and brown people

just really struck a chord with me.

And I'm wondering about

facilitators and

leaders in co-production,

how diverse that is.

Like,

so the people organising co-production

in itself,

so we've got.

Problem maybe with co-production not being so diverse

and those microaggressions playing out.

What about your experience of like people facilitating co-production?

I mean,

I've,

I mean,

I've worked with quite a few London boroughs.

So I would say in terms of like children in care councils,

um.

I would say,

you know,

at that level.

I have been lucky to see representation.

I think the issue.

Lies that that representation doesn't always translate to the

people with the power to implement the decisions,

um,

so it's absolutely great if

uh an engagement worker or an engagement lead is from a diverse background,

but if they're.

Reporting into leadership and systems and

places that aren't diverse and representative,

then it still

has that disconnect.

um,

and I think one thing that we get really,

really,

really wrong

is we think that co-production can be done with one person leading on it.

And one person can never be representative,

whether that's one person that is white,

whether they're black,

whether they're purple,

whether they're green,

they will represent.

Who they

are similar to.

And in co-production spaces I think

everyone always talks about lack of resources and

but

if we're only having

one person,

it is really hard to make that representative for people.

Um,

and the majority of spaces that I've been in,

it's been

one,

maybe two people at the max that

are kind of facilitating and leading co-production.

Um,

and I think

for me.

There needs to be a call to have a a broader number of people,

a broader range of people,

and maybe new ways of thinking about it as well,

because if it's

a resource issue,

for instance,

don't have one full-time person,

have two part-time people.

You know,

that then can be more representative and they,

they,

they work together,

they have a crossover day.

um,

there's ways that you can do it if you want to do it.

Um,

and even just championing if you're,

if you don't have the resources to employ

more people.

How are you using the co-pro people that you co-produce with

to be representative?

Do you have ambassadors?

Are the ambassadors representative?

Do you have people that volunteer and the volunteers are representative?

Do,

there are other ways that you can bring it in,

um,

so I would say for a leadership

level,

senior leadership

is less representative in co-production spaces

for sure,

but we know that's a problem in general,

um.

services is that usually leadership is less representative,

um,

but then

I always feel like there's quick wins and ways that you can

make it more representative and it's not always down to resources,

I think resources is sometimes a little bit of a cop out.

Um,

and I think.

I would like to see more places that co-produce using

ambassadors or using volunteers or just using what's available to

make these spaces feel safe and attractive and.

Accessible

for the broadest range of people really.

Do you have an opinion on how we make these spaces safe for

uh black and brown people?

I think it's hard because

everyone will have a personal definition of what is safe

and what feels safe,

and for one person,

lack of representation could make an environment feel unsafe.

For another person,

not being able to

confidently and comfortably speak about their experience without fear.

Of upsetting somebody is what makes them feel upset,

uh,

unsafe.

I think for another person,

you know,

feeling singled out or feeling like they're the only person

that looks like them makes the environment feel unsafe.

So I think there's a really,

really broad range of what can make someone feel unsafe.

Um,

I think in order to make spaces feel broadly

more safe for people,

that comes through with.

One,

an awareness of the language that we use and how that makes people feel.

Like there's been a lot around reclaiming language recently

and understanding that

if a group reclaims a piece of language that doesn't necessarily mean

that it's your language to reclaim or so on and so forth,

um.

Making sure that people feel that they can share their

experience without judgement or without fear of upsetting someone.

I think

more training around how we manage people's emotions,

um,

for instance,

you.

Can't work in an anti-racist frame of mind if you

cannot yet admit that racism happens.

And for some people they

can see it,

but they can see it over there,

or they can see it,

you know,

in that organisation but not in their own,

or they

can see it

on a particular issue but they can't understand it systemically.

So I think there needs to be an acceptance that.

Racism does take place and it is systemic and it is embedded,

um.

And then that uncomfortable conversation

with the people themselves.

How do we make these spaces more safe,

more equitable,

more accessible?

What is it that

people do that makes spaces feel unsafe for you?

And then how do we fix that?

Because I can only go through my lens.

I can only go through the lens of what would make me feel

sense and then applying common sense for other people from what I know.

Yeah.

I can't answer on behalf of other people.

Yeah.

Can I ask you,

cause I've heard a lot

conversations that I've collected today,

we've sent our conversation around co-production

and the here and now,

and I'm wondering about,

like,

the broader world outside how

that comes into co-production spaces,

particularly the stuff around.

You know,

being from,

um,

a background where you might have mixed heritage or being somebody that

lives in a diverse community and races and places like that,

does that,

like,

what's your experience of like kind of wider

influences.

So I think for me,

I'm someone of

dual heritage and for me.

I am

more white facing

100%,

so I think.

haven't had.

Like the worst experience,

but I've had,

really strange and uncomfortable things,

so I've had like,

Oh,

well I knew you're not white,

white,

are you?

Or I've had,

you know,

comments around,

oh,

you know,

you've got rhythm for a white girl,

or,

oh,

you've

and

so I think I've seen it be hard for people to

understand my dual heritage

and it's like,

well you look white,

but you're not white,

so I don't really know where to put you

and I don't really know how to treat you.

And it's not obvious enough what your background is for me to have

any like overt.

Form of racism,

but

covertly for me,

you know,

My race isn't

Isn't relevant,

and I've seen relevance be placed on it.

Um,

for me,

I am just me and I'm from my background and

I'll be from my background no matter what,

and it's not really for people to comment on.

Yeah.

But when people do say stuff like,

oh well you're not white,

white,

and this has been in workplaces,

you know,

or in a bar or

it's been in the full spectrum of spaces.

And it's just then shows to me that they've attached

some feeling of not being unable to understand

where I'm placed

and then a bit of uncomfortableness from them about the fact that they're not

quite able to place me instead of just taking me on the value of

wherever she's from.

Yeah.

She's Ashley,

and you know,

we'll take her on that.

And how?

Actually

co-producing,

being in a wider world with lots of people

around you that might be having other experiences.

How does that make sense?

Like,

so I know that you've

often talked about,

like,

you know,

other people,

the need to be inclusive,

racism exists in the wider world.

Like,

how does the kind of

social,

political,

wider world like,

impact on.

The production,

I suppose.

I think

Because of how I look.

Yeah.

I have had privilege to be in the spaces that I've been in.

And I'll be really honest about that because I'm

a palatable

form of care experience.

When people get to know me and they understand I'm a little bit pushy and a little bit,

I will call things out and I will be very direct,

but I will find an articulate and pleasant way to do it.

But I am what is perceived

Quite a bit less palatable than some,

but still more palatable than others.

Um,

so I've had privilege

and I think until people can be like me and acknowledge

their privilege

and

the fact that that does exist and what comes with it,

um,

the problem just continues to play out.

I think it's hard at the minute,

especially in children's social care,

and you hear.

Everything that's happening around,

you ask young people

and young people that come

to this country because they're in need of help and

support and where they come from might not be safe,

and they come here and they're

not treated in the same way as another child

and

they're not

given the same protection sometimes as other children or the same graces,

um.

That will then also play out into co-production spaces

because

their view

is somewhat invalidated by people because they're seen as more

mature or more capable or that they've been through less trauma,

and trauma is very,

very,

very personal and I would say it's an incredible.

Amount of trauma to lose your,

not your just your entire home and your entire family,

but your entire country and your entire

culture

and what you're used to and surroundings and

I do hear conversations around,

you know.

Or even sometimes in,

in fostering,

I've I've heard people say,

you know,

they want

you ask young people because they're easier.

We're not,

that doesn't even speak to or understand or go in

that lens of what has brought this child to us

and what are they juggling and what trauma have they had,

and

so obviously that's gonna play out in the spaces as well because we're just not

hearing people in the same way.

We're just not listening.

Mm.

Can I ask you,

and

like feel free not to ask,

answer this question,

but

you.

Have beautifully articulated,

like,

you know,

we all wear multiple hats.

And I'm just wondering about,

like,

your

kind of

friends,

your colleagues,

and their experiences.

So like,

do people come to you and share experiences of racism in co-production,

racism in the wider,

you know,

like,

I used,

of course,

I think.

Because I am someone of

dual heritage

and I've been in the foster care system,

which means that I've experienced a lot of cultures because

I've had foster carers from a lot of different backgrounds.

The friendship circle that mainly helped me when I was growing up,

even before I came into care,

was very diverse,

very,

it was a broader range of people.

The homes that I've been brought into,

the spaces that I've been brought into the

lives of people that I've been brought into

living in London.

have a really broad range of people

that I speak to and that I talk to and that I'm friends with and.

I'll be really honest,

when I was younger,

um,

one,

there's a book,

why I'm no longer talking to

white people about race,

and,

and in that book she says that in the UK we are really desensitised,

really,

really desensitised to like

the UK's involvement in racism,

um,

and the UK's role in racism.

And

when I was younger,

you know,

when I was really young and you're just learning what you learn in school,

and you can't necessarily see things through

that lens yet because you're quite naive

and you know,

you think everything is lovely and sunshine and rainbows.

What I have learnt from having people be comfortable to speak to me

and from luckily being surrounded by so many people with so many experiences

is that

even as someone with dual heritage.

I had.

idea.

The levels.

racism today,

still,

because I'd heard what everyone else heard,

you know,

we've come so far forward

and it's not like that anymore,

and actually,

I would say now obviously being this age in the last.

Kind of

78 years.

My eyes have really,

really,

really opened

through what people have been.

Sharing with me and talking to me about and wanting somebody to vent to and

my eyes have been really,

really,

really open to.

Just how

long of a way we have to go

and how we are not

all sunshine and rainbows and a million miles from where we used to be.

Um,

it's a very,

I don't think I have one friend

from a diverse background that has not shared an experience of racism with me.

And that's not even them sitting down and saying

this happened,

this was racist.

That's them sharing an experience with me or a day

or a piece of their day or just conversation.

Where I can see.

That

that was racist or I can see

that that was bias or discriminatory or and the why.

I've even been in,

I'll give an example that is not related to work.

I've been in.

A shop before that I always go in

and I'm always treated lovely in there,

absolutely lovely,

and I've gone to collect an order.

My friend's with me and she is a black female.

And we have gone into the store to collect this order,

and the woman's energy is just so different.

Now my friend is gonna think that that's just how this woman is

because

she hasn't seen her before,

she hasn't experienced her before.

But when I say this woman's energy

was a million miles apart from the energy that I experienced

every other time that I was in the store,

um.

Now

applying common sense,

I know that there was only one different factor

between

that time coming into the shop and all my other times coming into the shop.

So I can see.

What the difference is here.

Um,

So I think

I've been shocked

at.

The

daily experiences of people.

The cos I'm

very lucky in in how I look

and I have a lot of privilege because of the way that I appear.

But

for so many people

that I've directly witnessed their experiences or heard about them,

it's still embedded

in day to day.

And that is for me.

I mean,

it's not even shocking anymore,

it's.

The bit,

there was a point in my life where I was shocked by it.

But now I

feel like I would be shocked if I didn't

hear it.

Which for me it it creates such a battle in my mind because everything that we

tell ourselves is we're an anti-racist society and and we've come so far and

but then when you see your friends.

And people that you're close to and people that you love

and care about actually experiencing it pretty much every day.

And

I don't think people understand microaggressions very well.

I don't think people understand

different body language that they use with different people very well

and what it tells them or what it puts forward.

I don't think people are sometimes even aware

of the fact that what they are doing or saying or the body language that they're using

could come from a place of racism.

I think people

think that racism has to be that you have said that certain word

or you have said

I don't like someone because.

Um.

But it's so much more than that,

it is the everyday treatment of people

and it is the oppression that comes through people's actions and people's energy

and

even just the time that you have for people,

um,

and there are so many more layers to it.

So yes,

racism is about power imbalance and yes racism is about inequity.

But for me it transcends more into that.

If people cannot have an equitable day to day experience.

That is

racism,

and sometimes we need to step.

Away from that idea of systemic racism

and just come back into

racism in and of itself

and understand that that is where it starts

and the systemic racism is where it ends up.

Yeah.

Can I ask you,

like,

what do you think the solution to this particular round co-production is,

like,

what,

what can

people organisations do to.

You know,

be more equitable,

really be anti-racist.

Listen.

Listen,

And

Really listen.

Sometimes it can be easy to listen on the lens of what you

need to hear or what you think the problem that you're solving is.

But until

there are safe spaces that people from diverse backgrounds can come into

and be really open

about the experiences that they've had and people really learn from them.

And be open to learn from them.

We aren't gonna make

as much progress as we need to.

So it would be very,

very easy for somebody to say what I need to do is

make co-production more representative.

And yeah,

you do,

but what you first need to do is explore why it isn't representative and what are

the barriers and why don't people feel comfortable

or why don't they know about the spaces or

and get to the heart of

listening.

Um,

and the more that we listen,

we will stop trying to

come to people's answers for them,

and we will come to answers with them.

So I think that's in and of the main,

it starts

with

listening and being open and understanding that you're probably

gonna hear some things that make you feel uncomfortable.

But uncomfortable is a really good space to be in when it comes to this stuff,

um.

And then from there is when you

look at your implementation and your representation and

but it needs to start with listening,

we need to know what we're doing wrong.

And I'm just

wanting to kind of maybe.

Go back to a point that

you mentioned

really early on is that,

and

this is probably a really wonky word,

but that intersectionality,

so you talked about

being a woman,

so I'm wondering about all of the other stuff that we might need to do.

Would you say the same principles apply?

Yeah,

and I think this is sometimes.

Where

Race and racism

deserves its own spotlight.

In the same way that other areas of intersectionality deserve their own spotlight,

but overarchingly,

it needs to be how is this more equitable for everyone.

How is it more accessible for everyone,

how is it a safe space for everyone,

so I think there are pockets of work that happen

individually,

but then it is that bringing it all together,

bringing everyone together as well.

Around how

do we make these spaces because

an example being the experience of,

you know,

a black female that might

identify that you know,

she feels that she's attracted to women

is gonna be a very,

very different experience to.

black male who is heterosexual.

Or the experience of an Asian woman who

has transitioned is gonna be very,

very,

very different than the experience of,

um,

an Asian man

that has

identified that way always.

there are other crossovers of intersectionality and it's not just around gender,

age comes into it.

The experiences of

an older male are gonna be different than the experience of a younger male.

There's so many different levels.

That it needs to be that.

Understanding and learning for all.

Have you got any final thoughts that you'd like to share with me?

Just that

I don't want anyone to take away that it's all doom and gloom,

because it isn't.

And there has definitely been a shift in the last

few years of more of an appetite for co-production.

And there are some people that do it beautifully.

It's just

not yet at a stage where everybody has

an understood set of principles that they apply to co-production that

is acknowledged as best practise and what we should be doing,

which means depending on where you go or who

you speak to or what group you're accessing,

people will have very different experiences.

I've been very,

very,

very blessed and lucky to be in some of the co-production spaces that I have,

and I've also gone on a learning journey within those

spaces and with those organisations where it might have started

with some of the experiences that I've told

you and shared about where it's been really,

really negative.

And through that co-production and collaboration,

it's moved to somewhere where it's a lot more positive.

That doesn't mean that those experiences don't happen and

that's why it's important that I share those.

It isn't all doom and gloom,

because I I wouldn't want anyone to take away is that

we're not getting co-production right so we should be scared of it and not do it.

It is

absolutely working in some spaces and it's working very well.

It's absolutely growing in some spaces.

In some spaces it's starting out.

Through the uncomfortable conversations and through the learning and through

being open to how we improve it.

Is where it will get even better.

But that's not to say

it's all doom and gloom,

it isn't,

and these are the important conversations that make sure that we

keep improving and keep championing and keep making spaces accessible.

So I don't want people to,

anyone to feel disempowered about co-production.

I think this is a conversation on a certain topic

and therefore it's brought out certain themes

that are important to be brought out and be addressed.

But in addressing them,

then that shifts the conversation,

where in a year's time,

if me and you are having the same conversation,

Isaac,

we will have a lot more positive instances.

It is of anti-racist co-production to share.

Yeah.

And I think

that

centering around how

co-production

is a vehicle for great good,

but if we then do it in an anti-racist way,

it can even be better.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And

We're learning and we're growing and we're seeing

more people be open to learning and growing.

we're in the right spaces.

It's just now what we

do with them.

Absolutely.

I haven't got any more questions for you.

Do you have any for me?

No,

I don't think so.

I mean,

I'm definitely really interested to see what's pulled together

and all the perspective and all the views.

I won't ask you too much about it now until you're ready to share,

um.

But no,

just I'm glad that

the questions are being asked,

and I'm glad that they're being asked from

a broad range of people with a lot of different perspectives.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Well,

I will stop the recording there then.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

07/01/2025