Julie shares her experiences of managing the safeguarding board in Oldham - and how they have tried to weave coproduction into what they are doing. 

So my name is Jude Barley, and I am the safeguarding adults board business manager in Oldham. And I wanted to talk about the co-production work that I did prior to starting the job as a safeguarding adults board manager when I was, um, working for health Watch Children and the task I was given the time, uh, was to produce a prevention strategy for adult safeguarding, and it seemed fairly straightforward. Um, go off from that strategy. So we decided that as and the we is a small group of colleagues from old, uh, from health Watch from, uh, C c g from adult special care trying to think is that, um, and from domestic Abuse Partnership we came together as a group, and what we said was in order to produce a prevention strategy to explore existing safeguarding incidents and then work back

So we put a shout out and we got a total of I think, about 20 to 25 case studies from right across the board, a safeguarding instance, and as a group, we then sat down and we asked ourselves a series of questions and basically, each case study said, what could we have done. What should we have done to prevent the safeguarding incident from happening? So we sat in a room on our own with a case study and came up with what we thought as professionals were the right solutions. But what was quite clear was we didn't have that lived experience and we knew that all the things that we were coming up with could be completely wrong

So we thought, OK, let's let's settle this out and then let's go and talk to real people and see how far off the bar we are as a group of people who will shape commissioning tensions in older. And it feels wrong to have, I suppose, so much influence over public funds when we have no lived experience. So the challenge was, uh how did we explore a really sensitive subject like a safeguarding incident without opening up trauma people who have been through a safeguarding incident? So we spoke to mortals, Um, and some really good colleagues from across Greater Manchester gave us their name

I think it was you and Naomi, actually, and we worked with mortals. And what attracted me was the fact that mobile mortal a group of people with experience of mental health issues, social isolation just growing old, um, and learning disabilities. So it's a real cross mix of people who come together and create theatrical, um, pieces of drama based on their lived experience

So what we did was we shared our case studies that we had looked at with, uh, made by Mortal Theatre, and they reinterpreted the case study into little cameo dramas. And then we found a venue that we chose specifically so we could split out people. So people, uh, with other lived experiences and perhaps who people were at risk of a come along along and watch the cameos and chat about them but chat about them in a way that they don't need to share their own personal experience

It's very much at arm's length. They could give advice about what should, um but we also wanted professionals to listen. But we knew that if they were in the audience, they'd try and take over

So we found the chapel, which meant that we had all the professionals up literally in the gods of the chapel and they couldn't contribute. They could only listen. And it was for everybody else that lived experience to come along and watch the and give their views

It was really powerful. And I think at the end what we got out of that was, and people come up with comments that we would never have thought of as a group of professionals sitting in isolation. One of the main comments that I always remember was that we talked about social isolation and and we asked one gentleman who you would feel comfortable talking to, what services you go to, Um, and he turned it on his head and said To us, it doesn't matter about choosing the right service, what matters about how the service connects with you, he said

I will only connect with the service if I feel interested in and they die and there is a connection. So it completely changed our thinking about what we need to put in place to prevent issues. And it was more about changing the way people made connections and had empathy and kindness, um, and created time and space to listen to people

So I suppose what I'd like to say is that the change that came out of this is that We threw away the idea that we as a group of professionals, came up with that little room, and instead we looked at existing but changing language and being trauma informed and thinking differently about those connections. But also one, uh, a young man basically said I had to get to rock bottom bottom before I was ready to take help. And when I was ready, there was nothing there then, and what we realised was a lot of services trying to catch people before they reach the bottom

So we made two other changes. We created a more a comprehensive, um, offer. But when people reach rock bottom and they're ready to take on, um, some support, the agencies come together collectively, not just one

So that was one thing. But the other thing was, we changed the contracts with a lot of vol. Sector organisations

So instead of it saying OK, can you fix people? We said, build, build, trust, build a relationship, take time. And for me, that was one of the most significant changes that came out of this People work. So I think if I have to reflect back, there is still a sense that Co-production is a bit wishy washy

It's a nice to do add on. I think professionals don't feel always comfortable because it involves actually talking to real people, and they want to be able to go into a meeting, come up with a policy and then and this involves talking to people connecting understanding. It's a very different approach, and a lot of professionals aren't comfortable with that and they don't want to build a tariff

And so I I think that that's a that's a really challenge. I think it needs a culture shift, but I think we need to shout more about the fact that CO-PRODUCTION isn't just a nice to do. It actually means that we get the right and it's cost effective

So instead of creating solutions that professionals think need to go into place and spend a lot of money and the fact that nobody turns up to those services, so they have to go out and we go straight to the right solution and we get people involved, Um, I I mean, I hope that's yeah, No, that is really helpful. What I'm thinking is when you when you do build in time for coproduction in the way you describe what is the impact or what has been the impact in in your experience that well, that's when you get the insight. Is is building in the time and the connections and some of the some of the work that we've done, which I suppose is not co production, as this is a lot of agency talk about co-production

But what they mean is consultation, engagement. And I'm sure you've had the time. So some of the work that we've done is engagement because other agencies have refused to allow the time we've gone out and created that time and carried out those interviews and captured that insight

And we've taken it back, which is in production. But in some ways we've had to do it to sanitise the coproduction experience into something that professionals feel fit into their meeting arrangements. Uh, and it feels uncomfortable doing it like that

But then you think, Well, if it's a means to an end to get people's voices heard to then change the then perhaps it's worth it as the first step. And I think that's where we are now, and we've had some incredibly powerful stories that have come through that have needed time to come through. But I think the next challenge, then, is that some of these stories are so powerful

Professionals get frightened by the scale of change that is then needed and and that often gets left in the This is really hard to do, but and I think that's where we're struggling at the moment, Um, in old them to to do that Last bit of a jigsaw of of getting that co-production right, You haven't got it right. But we've got a lot of learning. I don't think I answered your question

No, no, you know, you did. But what you talked about there was the the the stories of lived experience. So maybe taking a step back, what is? What has been the impact of taking those stories to people? Has it changed the direction of things? Has it influenced the way people kind of approach or think or problem solve? So it has changed commissioning, um, priorities in autumn, it has changed the design of some of the services that have been commissioned as well

It has created a real interest to hear more lived experience stories But I think that then brings a different challenge, because when I reflected back over the last two years, we've had something like 20 lived experience stories captured and and brought into the. But what we're doing is we're soaking up these lived experience stories saying, Aren't we great? We've got these great lived experience stories, but when I say But how are we making sure they change? You know that they change the way we work. That's when we're not really quite so so good

We like to grab a lived experience story, say Hey, listen to this. It's amazing And then right, let's go on to the next the next area Instead of saying OK, we now need to actually create space in the system to change things so that those lived experience, um, people's lived experiences actually have a major impact. I still think the impact that we we're seeing is tinkering around the edges

So So it it feels like, um a A next step would be to think about how you can get some of those people in the space, not just their stories, without it feeling like you're just inviting them into something that like a a board meeting or whatever. Yeah, yes, and it's gotta be It's gotta work for them as well, because I always remember, um, I think we both know somebody amazing in Stockport who always said, You know, it worries me. And, um, you have lots of service users at very boring, uh, business meetings because they've got better things to do with their lives, and and I think that's absolutely true

So I think it's that balance of how do we respect people's time that they give us to get to share their stories, but do it in a way that they feel they've got something meaningful in response? But then doesn't mean that we say, Oh, well, come and join this board and we'll tick a box and have you on the board. It's something different, isn't it? It's It's how. Yeah, it it's the process that they used to translate their lived experiences to change that they can see and they can

They can feel value that they have and and I think we're not always that good at doing that. We done it some of the domestic abuse work that's going on, um, but I think in other areas, we've still got a long way to go. So you've had people involved in the domestic abuse work that you described

How is that? What impact has that had? What, what difference has that made for the people involved and the professionals on the other side? So for the people involved, I know at the time, they said, I think they were surprised at how cathartic the whole process was in sharing their experiences. Um, and every step of the way, I made sure that we fed back, and we told them on what date we were going to share their information and how it was going to be shared. Then I went back to them and said, This is what happened at the meeting

This is how people responded. And this is Oh, and one of the things they asked for support something that didn't involve professionals. But it was about people with lived experience supporting each other

They talked about a whole range of different solutions. This is one of the big ones, and that's how the and the women that share their views are central to the development of that group. So that feels really positive

But I think what's more important is that the project has gone on to develop, uh, a different piece of work with me shared. Their experiences have been created in twos, training forces and into, um, podcast interview so that they take ownership of their stories. They're actually helping to lead the way transformed way services

Um, and and that, I think is really important. Some of the other women they've gone on to be professionals within the domestic field as a result of this work. Um, from the professional side, what difference did it make? I think I know

Well, I know the response was, uh as because the professionals were completely thinking about that. So how powerful Some of those were there and they didn't hold back. Let say, you know, they were very very

And I think professionals also felt a responsibility to take action because those stories were so powerful. But I think they also felt quite, um frustrated that it did major system change, people that were listening to those stories, perhaps not always the system. So it was about having to constantly influence her, uh, and and keep to those stories to be heard and to understand it

So, yes, I think value the insight. And but I think each one we have to sort of the process of OK, so how do we translate this into tangible, uh, in practise? Hm. Thank you

It's good to It's good to get that update on on that on that work as well. Um, and how amazing that some of those women are now working. Yeah

In the service. Yes. And and in quite senior roles and influential roles

Um, and I actually 11 thing I suppose I would like to say One of them said when I was looking for, um she said I didn't be reflected back to me. Any workers that looked or sounded like me. Um, and this was somebody from, uh, an Asian background, a young Asian background

And the fact that she's now working in that field, um, means that she's then becoming a role model for others. And and that feels amazing. Do Do you think that would have happened without this? I mean, particularly probably for some of those individuals

I think it might have actually, because we worked with some amazing services to make contact with, uh, in this case, the different women and all credit to those support services. Um, they built a trusting relationship such that these women were happy to share their experiences with us based on the trust with that service. And I think both services make sure that the women achieve tho those those same aspirations

But I think actually sharing the story helped to build confidence. Um, and self respect and self esteem. I think it just helped in that whole process

So the conditions in terms of those organisations felt very different to in the local authority, perhaps? Yeah. Yes, because they knew they weren't being wheeled out to tick a box. They knew that they were part of, um well, the organisations that were working with them, they had a clear pathway for them, you know, through yeah, just helping them through very practical day to day solutions to get them back on their feet, right the way up to helping them, um, achieve, uh, the professional opportunities that they wanted

So they knew that they were on that pathway with them. And I think that's that. That's a really good point, because what happens with the author is you go out, you interview somebody and it feels like they get wheeled out

You tick a box, you grab their story, and then they're wheeled back. Uh, and and there isn't that ongoing relationship, and it doesn't feel good on either side. When you when? When That's the situation and circumstances you're capturing

Um uh, experiences. Yeah. It doesn't feel good

Um, is there anything else you'd like to add before I stop the recording? No, I think that's it. It's just that, um yeah, we're really open to learning from other areas to see how we can now, um, keep improving on this. We know we've got a long way to go

Um, but yeah, any any learning we would really.

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