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Report transcript in: Value of Copro - Julie talks about her experiences of coproduction and safeguarding in Oldham
Please Report the Errrors?
So my name is Jude Barley,
and I am the safeguarding
adults board business manager in Oldham.
And
I wanted to talk about the co-production work that I did prior to
starting the job as a safeguarding adults board manager when I was,
um, working for health Watch Children
and
the
task I was given the time,
uh, was to produce a prevention strategy for adult safeguarding,
and it seemed fairly straightforward. Um, go off from that strategy.
So we decided that as and the we is a small group of colleagues from
old,
uh, from health Watch
from, uh, C c g from adult special care trying to think
is
that,
um,
and from domestic Abuse Partnership we came together as a group,
and
what we said was in order to produce a prevention strategy to explore existing
safeguarding incidents
and then work back.
So we
put a shout out and we got a total of I think,
about 20 to 25 case studies from right across the board, a safeguarding instance,
and as a group,
we then sat down and we asked ourselves a series of questions and basically,
each case study said,
what could we have done. What should we have done
to prevent the safeguarding incident from happening?
So we sat in a room on our own with a case study
and came up with what we thought as professionals were the right solutions.
But what was quite clear was we didn't have that lived experience and we knew
that all the things that we were coming up with
could be completely wrong.
So we thought, OK,
let's let's settle this out and then let's go and talk to real people
and see how far off the bar we are as a group of people
who will shape commissioning tensions
in older. And it feels
wrong to have, I suppose,
so much influence over public funds when we have no lived experience.
So the challenge was,
uh
how did we explore a really sensitive subject
like a safeguarding incident without opening up trauma people
who have been through a safeguarding incident?
So we spoke to
mortals,
Um,
and some
really good colleagues from across Greater Manchester gave us their
name. I think it was you and Naomi, actually,
and we worked with
mortals. And
what attracted me
was the fact that mobile mortal
a group of people with experience of mental health issues, social isolation
just growing old, um, and learning disabilities. So it's a real
cross mix of people who come together
and
create
theatrical, um, pieces of drama based on their lived experience.
So what we did was we shared our case studies that we had looked at
with, uh, made by Mortal Theatre,
and
they reinterpreted the case study into little cameo dramas.
And then we found a venue
that
we chose specifically so we could split out people. So people,
uh, with other lived experiences and perhaps who people were at risk of a
come along along and watch the cameos and chat about them
but chat about them
in a way that they don't need to share their own personal experience.
It's very much at arm's length. They could give advice about what
should,
um
but we also wanted professionals to listen.
But we knew that if they were in the audience, they'd try and take over.
So we found the chapel,
which meant that we had all the professionals up literally in the gods of the chapel
and they couldn't contribute. They could only listen.
And it was for everybody else that lived
experience to come along and watch the
and
give their views.
It was really powerful. And I think
at the end
what we got out of that was,
and
people come up with comments that we would
never have thought of as a group of professionals
sitting in isolation.
One of the main comments that I always
remember was that we talked about social isolation
and
and we asked one gentleman
who
you would feel comfortable talking to, what services you go to, Um,
and he turned it on his head and said To us,
it doesn't matter
about choosing the right service,
what matters about how the service connects with you,
he said. I will only connect with the service if I feel interested in
and they die
and there is a connection.
So
it completely changed our thinking about what we
need to put in place to prevent issues.
And it was more about changing
the way people
made connections and
had empathy
and kindness, um,
and created time and space to listen to people.
So I suppose what I'd like to say is that the
change
that came out of this is that
We threw away the idea that we as a group of professionals,
came up with that little room,
and
instead we looked at existing
but changing language and being trauma
informed and thinking differently about those connections. But also
one,
uh, a
young man
basically said
I
had to get to rock bottom
bottom before I was ready to take help. And when I was ready,
there was nothing there then,
and what we realised was a lot of services trying to catch
people
before they reach
the bottom.
So
we made two other changes. We created a more
a comprehensive,
um, offer.
But when people reach rock bottom and they're ready to take on, um, some support,
the agencies come together collectively, not just one.
So that was one thing. But the other thing was, we changed
the contracts with a lot of vol.
Sector organisations. So instead of it saying OK, can you fix people?
We said,
build, build, trust, build a relationship, take time.
And for me,
that was one of the most significant changes that came out of this People work.
So I think
if I have to reflect back,
there is still a sense that Co-production is a bit wishy washy.
It's a nice to do add on.
I think professionals don't feel always comfortable because
it involves actually talking to real people,
and they want to be able to go into a meeting, come up with a policy and then
and this involves
talking to people connecting understanding.
It's a very different approach,
and a lot of professionals aren't comfortable with that
and they don't want to build a tariff.
And
so I I think that that's a that's a really challenge.
I think it needs a culture shift, but I think we need to
shout more
about the fact
that CO-PRODUCTION isn't just a nice to do.
It actually
means that we get the right
and it's cost effective. So instead of creating solutions
that
professionals think need to go into place and spend a lot of money
and the fact that nobody turns up to those services, so they have to go out and
we go straight to the right solution
and we get people involved,
Um,
I I mean, I hope that's
yeah,
No, that is really helpful.
What I'm thinking is when you when you do
build in time for coproduction in the way you describe
what is the impact or what has been the impact in in your experience
that well, that's when you get the insight. Is is building in
the time and the connections
and
some of the
some of the work that we've done, which I suppose is not co
production, as
this
is
a lot of
agency
talk about co-production. But what they mean is consultation, engagement.
And I'm sure you've had the
time.
So some of the work that we've done is engagement because
other agencies have refused to allow the time
we've gone out
and created that time and carried out those interviews and captured that insight.
And we've taken it back,
which is in
production. But in some ways we've had to do it
to sanitise
the coproduction experience into something that
professionals feel fit into their meeting arrangements.
Uh,
and it feels uncomfortable doing it like that.
But then you think, Well, if it's a means to an end to get people's voices heard
to then change the
then perhaps it's worth it as the first step.
And I think that's where we are now, and we've had some incredibly powerful stories
that have come through
that have needed time to come through.
But I think the next challenge, then, is that some of these stories are so powerful.
Professionals get frightened by the scale of change that is then needed
and
and that often gets left in the This is really hard to do, but
and I think that's where we're struggling
at the moment,
Um,
in old them to to do that Last bit of a jigsaw of of getting that co-production right,
You haven't got it right. But we've got a lot of learning.
I don't think I
answered your question. No, no, you know, you did.
But what you talked about there was the the the stories of lived experience.
So maybe taking a step back,
what is? What has been the impact of taking those stories to people?
Has it changed the direction of things?
Has it influenced the way people kind of approach or think or
problem solve?
So it has changed
commissioning,
um,
priorities in
autumn,
it has changed the design of some of
the services that have been commissioned as well.
It has
created a real interest to hear more
lived experience stories
But
I think that then brings a different challenge,
because when I reflected back over the last two years,
we've had something like 20 lived experience
stories captured and and brought into the.
But what we're doing is we're soaking up these lived experience stories saying,
Aren't we great?
We've got these great lived experience stories,
but when I say But
how are we
making sure they change?
You know that they change the way we work.
That's when we're not really quite so so good.
We like to grab a lived experience story, say Hey, listen to this.
It's amazing And then right, let's go on to the next
the next area
Instead of saying
OK, we now need to actually create space in the system
to change things
so that those lived experience, um,
people's lived experiences
actually have a major impact.
I still think the impact that we we're seeing is tinkering around the edges.
So So it it feels like,
um a A next step would be to think about how
you can get some of those people in the space,
not just their stories,
without it feeling like you're just inviting them into
something that like a a board meeting or whatever.
Yeah,
yes, and it's gotta be It's gotta work for them as well, because
I always remember, um,
I think we both know somebody amazing in Stockport who always said, You know,
it worries me.
And,
um,
you have lots of service users at very boring, uh,
business meetings because they've got better things to do with their lives,
and and I think that's absolutely true.
So
I think it's that balance of how do we respect people's
time that they give us to get to share their stories,
but do it in a way
that they feel they've got something meaningful in response?
But then doesn't mean that we say, Oh, well,
come and join this board and we'll tick a box and have you on the board.
It's something different, isn't it?
It's It's how.
Yeah, it it's the process that they used to translate
their lived experiences to change that they can see
and
they can.
They can feel value
that they have
and
and I think
we're not always that good at
doing that. We done it some of the domestic abuse work that's going on,
um,
but I think in other areas, we've still got a long way to go.
So you've had people involved in the domestic abuse work that you described.
How is that?
What impact has that had?
What, what difference has that made for the people involved and
the professionals on the other side?
So for the
people involved,
I know at the time, they said,
I think they were surprised at how cathartic
the whole process was in sharing their experiences.
Um,
and
every step of the way,
I made sure that we fed back,
and we told them on what date we were going to
share their information and how it was going to be shared.
Then I went back to them and said, This is what happened at the meeting.
This is how people responded.
And this is
Oh,
and one of the things they asked for
support something that didn't involve professionals. But it was about
people with lived experience supporting each other.
They talked about a whole range of different solutions. This is one of the big ones,
and that's how
the
and
the women
that share their views are central
to the development of that group.
So that feels really positive.
But I think what's more important is that
the project has
gone on to develop, uh, a different piece of work with me
shared. Their experiences have been created in twos,
training forces and into,
um,
podcast
interview
so that they take ownership of their stories.
They're actually
helping
to lead the way transformed way services.
Um,
and and that, I think is
really
important.
Some of the other women
they've gone on to be professionals within the domestic field
as a result of this work.
Um,
from the professional side, what difference did it make? I think
I know. Well, I know the response was,
uh as
because
the professionals were completely thinking about that.
So how powerful Some of those
were there and
they didn't
hold back. Let say, you know, they were very very.
And
I think professionals also felt
a responsibility
to take action because
those stories were so powerful. But I think they also felt quite,
um
frustrated
that
it did major system change, people that were listening to those stories,
perhaps not always the system.
So it was about having to constantly influence her,
uh, and and keep
to those stories to be heard and to understand it.
So,
yes, I think
value
the insight.
And
but I think
each one we have to sort of
the process of OK, so how do we translate this into
tangible,
uh, in practise?
Hm.
Thank you. It's good to It's good to get that update on on that on that work as well.
Um,
and how amazing that some of those women are now working.
Yeah.
In the service.
Yes.
And and in quite senior roles and influential roles.
Um,
and I actually 11 thing I suppose I would like to say One of them
said
when I was looking for,
um
she said I didn't
be reflected back to me. Any workers that looked or sounded like me.
Um,
and
this was somebody from, uh, an Asian background, a young Asian background.
And the fact that she's now working in that field,
um,
means that she's then becoming a role model for others.
And and that feels amazing.
Do Do you think that would have happened
without this?
I mean, particularly probably for some of those individuals.
I think
it might have actually, because
we
worked with some amazing services to make contact with,
uh, in this case, the different women
and
all credit to those support services. Um,
they built a trusting relationship such that these women
were happy to
share their experiences with
us based on the trust with that service.
And I think
both services
make sure that the women
achieve
tho those those same aspirations.
But I think actually sharing the story helped
to build confidence.
Um,
and self respect and self esteem. I think it just helped in that whole process.
So the conditions in terms of those organisations felt very different to
in the local authority,
perhaps?
Yeah.
Yes, because they knew they weren't being wheeled out
to tick a box.
They
knew that they were part of, um
well, the organisations that were working with them, they had a clear
pathway for them, you know, through
yeah, just helping them through
very practical day to day solutions to get them back on their feet,
right the way up to helping them,
um,
achieve,
uh, the professional opportunities that they wanted.
So they knew that they were on that pathway with them.
And I think that's that.
That's a really good point, because what happens with the author
is
you go out, you interview somebody and it feels like they get wheeled out.
You tick a box, you grab their story, and then they're wheeled
back. Uh, and and there isn't that ongoing relationship,
and it doesn't feel good on either side.
When you when? When That's the situation and circumstances you're capturing.
Um
uh, experiences. Yeah. It doesn't feel good.
Um, is there anything else you'd like to add before I stop the recording?
No, I think that's it. It's just that, um
yeah,
we're really open to
learning from other areas to see how we can now, um,
keep improving on this. We know we've got a long way to go.
Um,
but yeah, any any learning we would really
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