YESMIN Talks About Co-Production

So Thank you for finding the time to speak for me. Can I get you to introduce yourself, please? Sure, I'm Yasmin, a public patient representative, um, on the NIHR Academy. I'm also a co-producer, um, member at the UCL Coro Collective. What does co-production mean to you? Co-production means

Working in equal partnership for mutual benefit. So having all stakeholders on the table. Working together throughout the whole journey and not just parts of the journey

We are exploring what racialized global majority of people experience in terms of co-production. So can I ask you, what's your experience been of co-production as a Bengali woman? Co-production as a Bengali woman, initially I was weaning myself into it and I did find it quite um Intriguing actually, but. When I realised it was co-production

I realised how much my words meant to the group, whereas usually, Uh, like The public or patient or service users, they're on the backbench, and then you hardly hear their voices. So when I did this uh co-production work, I realised like, hang on, they're listening to me, you know, my, my voice counts, my thoughts, my perspectives counts, and I thought my um ethnic background might Uh, be like some people might be judgmental. But then I realised, actually, there are so many other people from diverse backgrounds

So we're all on the same boat together, you know, bringing our own perspectives and even so, bringing the richness of our ethnicity onto the, um, onto the table, I would say. Many people have spoken about some of the challenges they face in co-production because of their racial identity. Like, have you had any experiences that

You feel could have been different. Like good, bad, or? Yeah, like I'm just, so this project's really exploring like what the experience of racialized people are, or it has been in co-production. And people have talked about some good stuff, people have talked about some not so good stuff

So have you had any experiences where race has played out in the co-production? Um, I'll be honest. On most of the co-production projects that I've been on, there's been mainly white people on the um panel or or the group. And I did feel Like the sore thumb, you know, I did stand out like a sore thumb, and also I realised like, So I'm a Muslim and I only eat halal

I don't drink either. So when they were in person, um, group meetings, my dietary needs weren't catered for because I was the only Muslim there. So there would be like chicken and things like that, and I would always have to opt for the veg dish, and I'm not veg

I I love my poultry and I love my um whatever. And also the desserts would have wine in it and things like that. So, you know, that was, that's just a little aspect of being different, how it, how it impacts the whole group

Um. And also people are, a lot of people are unaware of um my cultural backgrounds, what it really means, and, you know, they have presumptions and they have assumptions of you wear, you wear a scarf, you're oppressed, you know, that kind of thing. But, you know, so a lot of people needed a lot of um educating

Um, and it was, they were like, they had, they raised their eyebrows like, oh really? Is that how it is? So, you know, so there was, there was, um. I wouldn't say there was discrimination, but on a in a positive way where they wanted to learn. How does it feel always being the teacher of other people around your like cultural competency or your needs? Sometimes, I mean, I, I love learning

So I love learning. And that's why I love meeting new people, because they bring so much knowledge and I, I learned so much from them. So when people ask me about my background, I love sharing

And, and it's like enlightening them, just how I would feel enlightened about certain, um, ethnic dishes, like I've never heard of. And And um So when they say, oh, try this, this is called this, you know. It's it's um how do you make it, you know, it's, you know, it's really nice

You learn something new. I know I always go back to food because I love food. Tell me about the food analogy, like what, why is it important to approach co-production and, and think about um diversity? Yeah, like I said, uh, I, I think, I don't know if you've heard about my potato analogy

Um, so that was something that I came up with, because somebody asked me, what's diversity? And if I was to tell them, they wouldn't understand. And I like, because I'm a visual learner, I like to teach like that, or even I would expect people, I would want people to imagine visualising their, in their head. So I came up with this potato analogy

And I said, like, say, uh, should I tell you about it? OK. So, um, so what I said was, if I get a bag of potatoes, and that bag of potatoes could be, could represent an issue or a topic or whatever, and it's the same bag of potatoes. And if I was to share those potatoes amongst the people in the room from all different um backgrounds, different paths, different demographics, um, ethnicities, and, um, career paths and all that stuff

And I give a potato to every single one of them, and I ask them to make something with it. And then you would hear all sorts of different things being made with those potatoes. And it's amazing because you wouldn't think that potato could be made into so many things, including a stamp, including a And I'm a meeting go Hoani

I'm a meeting when record horo. Um, so I asked this in a, in a conference actually, and one of the professors said, well, actually, I'm not going to make anything with it. I'm going to hide it and get my granddaughter to find it

So that showed the different perspectives that people bring. That one bag of potatoes, shared that to different people. And then you tell them, bring it, bring your ideas on what you've made with the potato onto the table

And you'll see what one bag of potatoes, so the one Topic, one issue given to individuals can bring back, and that's diversity. It's bringing people's perspectives. Um, yeah, and I learned so much things, so many, um, food items that you could make with potatoes

Hot pot is one of them, which I never knew about. So Can I ask you, like, uh, there's a really good knowledge about why we need to ensure that we're being diverse in approach. Like what's your experience been compared to your white peers in co-production, so do you feel like, Your opinions are as valid, do you feel that you have the same experience, um, a lot of people talked about like, um, they don't necessarily feel they, as a racialized person have the same experience

Um, and so I'm wondering about like, what has your experience been? When, when initially I I came in, I had to build myself and I had to make myself people had to, well, obviously I came in as a black canvas, and then I built my reputation with the things that I shared. And after I had shared certain things, people learned about my capacity. And after that, I realised that my voice was actually taken seriously

My thoughts and perspectives were taken very seriously, whereas initially it was just like somebody who's just come to join, you know, OK, we'll have, you know, give, give an introduction. What's your name, blah, blah, blah. But then when I started speaking and I give, and I started sharing insights and experiences, um, people realised that I'm, I wasn't joking or I'm not a, you know, I'm not just speaking

I, I mean what I say and they are fundamental to my, my beliefs. Um, and so I started growing my reputation in that sense, um. And after that, um, and I'm still learning, and I'm still growing, still progressing and developing

But after that, I realised that people do take me seriously now, um, because of the things that I say and the things that I share, and my perspectives. And usually my perspectives aren't only my perspective. I usually, uh, vocalise the voices of the, um, unheard

So the people in my community. I would speak, I would speak on their behalf because they either have language barriers or some sort of barrier, hence they're not, um, In co-production themselves, but I make sure that their voices are heard. Can I ask you about, cos I know we, we've had a conversation um

And just to say this, we can anonymize this, we can use this story in a variety of ways. Um, like I know you expressed some. Concern over being looked over for particular roles um that you you had applied for and other people had applied for that happened to be white peers, like, would you share that with me cause I think it's really important in terms of how we, So I won't name any institutions because I am affiliated with many institutions

Um, but I will share an experience which has been very disheartening for me. I've been with this organisation for 3.5 years, and every year there's an away day, not away date, it's for, um, training purposes

And every year I've applied for it. I've applied to be on the away day to better myself so I could deliver a better service for the organisation that I was in. And consecutively, I was declined on 3 occasions, 3 years in a row, I was declined

This year, I said to myself, I might be an idiot, but I'm gonna try again. And the only reason I tried again is because for the past 3 years, when I got the results, because it's a peer group, so we, we have our little WhatsApp group, so we know who's getting selected and who's applied and all that. So, one moment

My husband's trying to help me out with the dishes, but I just um told him it's too much noise. Um, so, so in the WhatsApp group, I realised, uh, uh, the same couple of us apply because we, we, we make that time to, you know, develop ourselves, and others just aren't, don't have the, they can't commit to that time away. So every year, the same white gentleman gets picked

And that gentleman, Isaac, I trained, I trained that gentleman when he initially came in. Um, I trained him to, uh, become, I'm not gonna mention the post and all that stuff. And then it turns out that every year he's a white gentleman and he gets picked

On, uh, 22 years in a row, he got picked. Um, first year, he wasn't there. So 2 years after he came, he was picked

So this year was his 3rd year. And when I found out that um he's getting picked again, I inquired, and I said, what's happening? If anything, I know I have the um uh uh skills and the qualities. To be on this day, I can do this job, I can do it, um, and if anything, if I am given this opportunity, I'll deliver a better service for you and your, um, fellows or whatever, you know

And they said, well, and I said, why is it? Why is it that I'm not being picked? Um, and they said because you don't meet the criteria. I didn't go into asking what the criteria was, because to me it seemed like the criteria was you had to be white. Because I mean, I I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but I have a lot of, lot of experience

I have a lot of um that you can never have enough knowledge, but I do have knowledge in the area that I've applied to be on. Um, so why have I not been selected? And in fact, when I saw the pictures, not a single Asian person was there, Isaac. There was one black lady

There was one black lady there, and I don't know how she ended up there. Um, and I'm very happy for her. But that was the You know, Those, and, and so now I'm beginning to think, what's the criteria you have to be white, you know, I have nothing against white or I have nothing against anyone

All I believe is equal opportunities. Your, your skin shouldn't determine whether you get a job, your skin colour, um, your ethnicity, your, uh, sexuality, none of that should, but your qualifications, your experience, your knowledge, all those things should But anything other than that, no, you know. How did it make you, how do you feel knowing, like how does this make you feel as someone so knowledgeable about co-production that is just getting blocked? I, you know, honestly, Isaac

When I wasn't selected, I, I was very upset, but then I thought to myself, well, you know what. They're losing out. They're losing out by by not embracing diversity because they're losing out on knowledge that they could have gained via me

Um, the. You know, the Bengali cultures and all that, all those things, you know, they're losing out and I always say the, the more the merrier, especially if it's diverse. You know, I, I totally believe in diversity

I mean, I have family members that have married into different ethnicities. So it, I'm totally comfortable, um, you know, and, and I love it more than anything. And when it's in co-production, it's, it's a family

It's a journey together, you know, from the beginning all the way to the end. What do you think we need to do? In co-production spaces to tackle racism and oppression, like how, how do we really tackle it, like, What are the, like your top tips, cos you're so like knowledgeable, like how do we have these kind of conversations? I would say training workshops and um hands-on activities. These 3 things, um

They can do wonders. You know, recently, I was in an activity, uh, in a meeting where we had one small activity, which kind of brought everyone together, away from the PowerPoint slides, away from the, uh, sheets of paper, reading and all that stuff. We actually played about with Lego

And It just, it just shows that, you know, we can all come together, given the resource, given the resources, the right resources, given the right space and time and having that diversity in the room. It just makes you realise that it doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman or this or that, you know. At the end of the day, it's you

You're bringing yourself exactly the way you are. And that's what's important. So with the Lego, we were told to, uh, sit back to back

And then, so we, we have the same number of Legos. I had the same number for Legos, and he had the same number of Legos. And, and I did this with a white gentleman

He was lovely. And so I had to direct him to build this Lego that I had my one was already made in a certain way. And I behind him, I had to tell him, you need to put this like that, this like that

And he had to follow my instructions and make exactly what I had in my hand. And initially, sorry, he told me first, and then we swapped roles. So when he told me, I got it all wrong, because we were just, I, I wasn't allowed to ask questions

I only had to follow instructions. So he said this, I wasn't allowed to say, Is it the blue one or is it the right-hand side, or is it the left-hand side? Um, I just, all I could say was, yes. He would say, have you put it on? Yes

Have you done this? Yes. That's all I could say. And I didn't obviously match up to the, um, piece that he had

And then we swapped over, and he was allowed to ask questions. So he was allowed to say, so hang on. So the red one goes on the right side, right? And the yellow one goes on the left side? And I could answer, yes

And then afterwards, he made exactly what I had instructed him to make. But that was because he was allowed to ask questions. And that activity really built that relationship

It was a small activity, it was like 1015 minutes activity, but everyone in the room after the activity became friends because we were having that interaction, the 1 to 1 interaction. And helping each other to do. Our goal was to make this thing together, you know, I was giving the instructions, he was listening

He was giving the instructions. I was listening. And we did it, you know, we tried it this way, where I wasn't allowed to ask the questions, and then we, we did it where he was allowed to ask questions

And how it worked out. So it's best that when somebody's dark, we should have that door open for questions and, you know, to, to make sure that our communication is spot on. Yeah

Can I ask you, so you're, you do a lot of co-production. How many people in co-production spaces, um, sound like you are from your community, look like you, so, are there other people like you in the kind of co-production that you do? No, not a single one. No

But, so, so I'm Bengali, um, and I haven't come across another Bengali, um, in any of my co-production workspaces, but I have come across Indians, I have come across Sikh, um, so we, we still fall in the South Asian category. So I know I, I guess, you know, I have, but I haven't seen. Many with this on So, um, I, I, you know, unless I've missed it, um, no, but I've seen other South South Asians

How many do you think, uh, thinking about the, the people that lead co production spaces, are they typically South Asian, are they so is it diverse like in terms of facilitators. Uh, the facilitators, no, they're never from the South Asian community, no. No, never

Um, But, but this um organisation wanted to work with the collective, and they were very much. Bangladeshi uh group that wanted to um embrace co-production, so we kind of worked with them and they were the only group that actually um Approached us No, actually, they have been, sorry, Isaac, I'm lying. They have been there the um cancer research group and um

Housing. Yeah, so, yeah, there, there, there have been actually, oops. There's been two in like how, like your long journey of co-production, two experiences of racialized groups

So yes. 2. OK

So can I ask you, like, and I want us to get to like, um, like the space that, so. How inclusive really is co-production for racialized people? Like, is it really inclusive? Has it got some way to go? I think it's about um Advertising in the right places. So if you were to say, if you were to catch um say Uh, people from ethnic minorities, especially those, say, for example, are focusing on pregnant women from The Bangladeshi community that have come from Bangladesh and are in this country, or are they're quite new, like 5 years or something

Um, they're pregnant. Now, in order to find these ladies, you won't find them on Twitter. So advertising that post for, for recruitment on Twitter won't be ideal for them

But a way to get them. is through WhatsApp and by word of mouth. Because when I, especially South South Asians, there is a trust issue

And so when people, when somebody, for example, if I say to someone, there's a workshop going on, we need to we're looking for someone like you, your voice, your voice and your um um perspectives are important, they would come along. And then, you know, so whereas if they saw a Twitter, if they saw a Twitter post or if they saw um a Facebook post, they just flick past it. You know, because of the trust issue

So it's about reaching the people via the right channels and whether it's the gatekeepers, whether it's a community connector, whether it's your midwife, GP, you know, it's finding the right channels to Uh, pull out the, um. Uh, people that you, you're looking for. And not actually like a and really

Oh, so I'm wondering, like, your experience of co-production, do you think co-production has, do you think racism plays out in co-production spaces? I'll be honest, I don't, I think people co-production has come really far, that. People are embracing diversity. It's not as bad, like I said, initially when I came in, say like uh 4 or 5 years ago, 4 years ago actually

Obviously it was new to me. It was new to a lot of people. So it was hard navigating and then because this is a new thing, how do we, let's start with what the people that we have already, you know, this co-production journey

And whoever was, you know, wants to jump on board, OK, fine, you can come on. But then as when time went by, people realised that that the richness of different voices, that the, the richness of data that they're bringing in, um. And especially relevancy

If you're going to uh do research, for example, on um diabetes on uh in, in Indian women with specific like with three children, for example, you know, you would need, you would need to really find your path to recruit them, isn't it? You, you know, you, you. Yeah You, you would, you would, you would need them on the, on the panel on in the group to get, you know, to get the information. You can't get this specific uh information from a white lady who's already in the group

So, so how, making your research. Um, relevant is via the co-production process. Even the, even like the question for a researcher, what should I research on? If it's co-produced, you know that that research piece of research is going to be relevant because it's been co-produced

It's something that people want to Um, better develop or, you know, enhance. How do you think that we could, many people have spoken about racism, misogyny, all the things that play out in co-production spaces, maybe being the only brown person, maybe being the only black person in that space. How do we ensure co-production is truly anti-racist? Like, what would you do if you were gonna be leading co-production, making sure that it's fully inclusive and anti-racist? This is a really tricky one, and it's quite lengthy as well

The process would be very lengthy, but I would suggest that people do a competency test on racism before they even join a co-production group to see how much they understand about race, equality and diversity, um. Yeah, I, I, I think that would be, and if, if, if they're not competent, give them the training and then bring them on board. Like if you're gonna

If you're gonna be part of the process, you have to at least acknowledge these things because they are fundamental in um research and co-production where everybody sits on the panel as equals um with mutual benefit. And how do we have some of these difficult conversations when. People don't recognise that this is important

So, like, I love you the idea of, like, everybody has access to anti-racism trainee, everyone has access to, um, some form of like support to further their knowledge around inclusion, diversity and equity. Like, so how do we have, like, difficult conversation when some people don't even recognise it's a problem? Mm. Hm

I would, I, I actually don't know how I would approach that. um, if somebody doesn't know much about. Because I have come across people who don't know much about it, and you just carry on with it

They don't know, they don't know, let's just carry on with the agenda. That was the approach, but I actually don't know how. Else Because you can't pull someone to a side and say, if you, especially if you're

I'm online I, I, I'm sorry, Isaac, I don't have the answer to that. No, and do you think that we need to get better at kind of maybe. Supporting people to understand, you may not know this, but here is like cos I in my head I was like thinking in co-production we often talk about creating a space where everyone can contribute, but if your contributions

Coming from a place where you don't know something, how do we make it fair, like how do we ensure that. Racism is recognised, how do we ensure that. Islamophobia is recognised has to be sure, all the things that might play out

We have those kind of conversations. I think this is a very sensitive area where it can trigger a lot of people, so we have to be very mindful when we approach this area, um, and we can't really um delve into it without getting acknowledgement that people are ready to kind of look into this, and they have the um uh. Inquisiteness like to to actually know about it

And so the person sharing their. Experience need need to. Know the the consequences and the person learning about this also needs to be aware and then be aware of their self uh unconscious bias and, and things like that

And you need to have a, a mediator in between to say, you know, like, this is how it is. Um I'm gonna have to go to the living room because um he just needs to um eat. So we were having the conversation around like for me it feels like um

There might be some apprehension or some things not being said, um, like. Very unfiltered, like what do you, what would you like to say about this, this topic around? Your experiences as a Bengali woman in co-production. A Bengali woman in co-production is something new, I would say for a lot of people and for Bengalis and for me especially um

The the whole concept of co-production is somewhat new, so a lot of people need a lot of adapting, I guess, and uh. Yeah, not a long way to go, I guess. But, uh, Small changes are being made and, and that's what matters, you know, slowly but surely

And do you, when talking to me, is there any like apprehension around like even this conversation? No, actually, there is no apprehension at all, Isaac, because I trust you. I, I, I've known you for however long I've known you for, and I've had conversations with you and I can fully Um, open up to you. I have that, uh, trust issue, so that relationship, and that's another thing

It's so important to build relationships and co-production. It's not a one day event that you greet and meet and then say goodbye. Co-production isn't like that

It's about building relationships, building trust and sustaining that relationship. And, and hence why, um, I was very happy to kind of share my, my, um, story with you. Because I know you in in the sense that we've worked together and, and I trust you

And can I ask you, because you talked about. So I, I know that when I'm in spaces with you, that you are often, well you, sometimes you're the only, most of the time you're the only person with a headscarf on. Most of the time you're the only woman

Most of the time you're the only Bengali woman. And like we are passionate about co-production, we want more people to be involved, like, so how do we move from. This fear, I think that might be held in our communities, in our

Spaces around the involvement. By examples. So I, um, I wouldn't call myself a trendsetter, but I am to some extent

So when I got into co-production and I started, I mean, I. I'm well above my mid-40s, and for me to go into studying after 5 children, getting a degree, and then now considering PhD, it's like it's, it's a new thing for a lot of Bengali women. If Yasmin can do it, surely I can, you know

So I think I started that kind of trailblazer kind of thing, um, with going into work later on in your life after mothering your children and actually finding, I mean, I've only started to learn about myself, my needs, and my passion after my children all went to, they have, they've got their own lives. And now it's about me, myself, and what makes me happy. And I realised that it's helping people that makes me happy

And if and and it's that, that passion that led me from one thing to another to another, then campaigns, then projects and and then research. So it's just, you know, so I think leading by example. It is a big one to show

Uh, other women that there are women that look like you doing these sort of things, you can do it too. And if you fast forward, um, 10 years, where would you like to see co-production be in 10 years? I believe in co-production, so I want every organisation, um, I feel like that's the only way to do things because it, it. It works for everyone

It's a two-way street, you know, and there's no hierarchy for anyone to kind of want to climb that ladder or, you know, look down at somebody. No, we're all there as equals, you know, nobody needs to feel inferior or superior. And um And by talking to your staff and, and knowing

How to do things from the beget go from the beginning. If anything, everyone will learn and things will get done, especially when the relationship and trust is there. You know, like, if, if you were to ask me, Isaac, uh, Yasmin, can you, can you come to, um, somebody's just dropped out

Can you come to a meeting with me tomorrow because I need somebody. I will go. I will go

And if somebody, if say like, um, I don't have a manager, but if my manager said to me, Yasmin, and I didn't like that manager for me, and he said, you know, or she said, Yasmin, can you come to the meeting? And I didn't like the manager, I would say no. Clearly. Yeah

You know. That relationship aspects really come across. Can I ask you, like, one final question? How much? Conversations are had about the legacy of

Um, slavery, the legacy of imperialism in co-production spaces, do people recognise, These kind of topics in, in co-production spaces. I don't think so. That is something

That will take a long time for actually drill into everybody's heads, because at the moment, it's just on the surface and it's coming and it's going. But a lot of this, it's about educating people and training people and making them competent, you know, in, in, in these sort of things. Um, so I think that that

That's a long way away, I would say. Um, but, but with the youth, they're so much more informed, I would say. And they, they have the eagerness and the passion to find out something as well, if they, and because the world isn't in your fingertips, you can find out anything anytime

Um, you don't have to go to the library. You can just, you know, find out on the net like, what's this, uh, where did slavery start from or? Um, you know, the, the guy, the, the guy, the statue that was pulled down. Where was it? Bristol Bristol, exactly

Yeah. So, you know, I, I forgotten road, something was it road? Something Rhodes nose or something. Anyway, um, I wrote an article about it and I can't even remember myself

That's, that's what you call brain fog. But um yeah, so people, yeah, the youth especially, they can just look up something and if they're intrigued, you know, and they are very um Like enthusiastic about certain things, you know, but also it's about their guidance as well, who's guiding them. You know, to make to to bring that um enthusiasm

We come out from in them from them. So I have one final question, you might have some for me. My final question is, do you think that

Knowing that's really far away, do you think we need to pay attention to understanding. Colonialism, understanding slavery, understanding all of those things in racism in in co-production spaces. I think if we dwell on those things

It will create a lot of issues. Because At the moment, you know, people, there's a lot happening around the world, um. You get the some white people saying the immigrants that are, the immigrants are taking our jobs

They're coming to this country, they're taking our jobs. And then you get the immigrants saying, Well, you stole the stuff from our country, you know, turn our jewels back or whatever, you know. So it just, it, it can get very messy if you go into, if you go into that part, there'll be a lot of, um, frictions, I would say

Because it is tit for tat, you know, it, it's come to a point where it is tit for tat, well, you know. You did this in our country. Now it's our time to take, you know, take revenge or to take back or, you know, it's only fair that we're here or, you know, I, I don't know

Well, it's all stuff that we need to properly explore, isn't it? Like. Do you have any questions for me? Yes, actually. So with this um

With these interviews, what's the final conclusion that you, you, you're planning to do with all this? So what we are going to do is create some learning opportunities for people to learn together around making co-production more inclusive, understanding how um co-production can be anti-racist, how we can maybe support people like yourselves and other people to lead co-production. I think it's interesting to. Knowing you like

When you said oh I'm the only Bengay woman in these spaces, so I know that to be a fact because I'm in those spaces with you, so like how do you use this to create more Bengali women to be in this space, how do we have, and I suppose like. How do we use this as learning material to create positive change and to make co-production more inclusive? What, I will suggest about with your particular story is that we can. Um, I'll transcribe it

I think we just use the audio bits, and if there are bits that we both agree, we can use them in different ways, but we're not doing anything other than taking the learning, what are the key themes. And I, I will be honest, I do think there is a. Uh, kind of processing thing that happens with this, like we're talking and you're processing like experiences that are quite hard to process, you know, like

And we can come back together and have a conversation. You know, Isaac, I know for sure that after we hang up, I'm gonna come up with all those, why didn't I say that? Why didn't I say that? Because that's how my brain works. Uh, on the spot, I don't remember, but then while I'm doing other stuff, things pop into my head

Um, yeah, most probably, I know I've missed out a lot of, um, Um, very important things. Which just kind of fly in and then fly out. And then I feel like I'm waffling and I think I have waffled actually

But um, yeah, I think if, if anything does come up, I, I will definitely share it with you. Yeah. And can I just offer something like I think

Whilst processing trauma happens to us as brown people, um, and I think we need to be kind to ourselves. So look, what I'd say is don't think that this is the only opportunity. We see this as a long-term commitment to the code-production collectives, aim to be anti-racist, um, so thank you

Um, I've learned so much and so much echoed. Um, so what I'll do is I will save the video in a secure place. I'll send you the consent form and I, what we'll agree for now is we'll transcribe and then we'll figure out

What bits we will use, what bits we won't use, if we use any of it in terms of the video or the audio, but we definitely can use the transcription cos we want people to feel safe and comfortable with what they put out in the world. Um. Can I just say also Isaac, before I forget, having, um

Um, a versatile, um, facilitator who is very adaptive is so important, and I put, not two thumbs up. I'll pay, I'd put however many thumbs I have, I'll put them up for Nick because she is so. So open, you know, whenever you you give suggestions, she welcomes um them so openheartedly and she never kind of

Says, well, that's not a good idea. If it's not a good idea, she'll say in a way where um you don't feel offended um so and and I think it's she. Can really um make people feel comfortable

Every single person since I've known Nick, been about 3.5, 4 years, I've never felt like I'm a brown girl. That she's talking to, you know, I felt like one of them, 11 of the co-production group from day dot, and that's what co-production does

It doesn't single you out. Whereas other kind of um projects that I've worked on, I have been singled out, whether verbally or not physically as such. Well, actually with the dietary requirements, that's a big one for me

Because I love my food, and if I can't eat, then I don't have the energy, um. But you know, it, it's so important to have that the the. The facilitator or the person who's running the project, the manager or whatever, you know

They need to be, they need to be able to embrace everyone's kind of individuality that or everyone that comes into the room and not just, you know, like I I've, I've had it happen to me, Isaac, where I've got my hand up and they'll only go to. The white lady. And eventually, if there's time, oh yeah, yes, uh, Yasmine, you, did you have your hand up? Of course, I've had my hand up for the past 20 minutes, but you've just ignored me because you're picking all the other white ladies in the

And it's not only against white, but it just happens to be white at this, you know, moment. And, and because I know you quite well, I think because you're such a caring person, you would never want to offend anybody, but. Like that has just come across in all of these conversations, how people's ideas are taken by white people and and, you know, if you might share this an idea and it's not heard, but then that white person says the same thing and it's heard or that white person's hand is

Yeah, yeah, I could say something and then Somebody else could say exactly the same, but worded differently and that's taken into account, um. 00, actually, yes, Liz, that was so amazing. But I just said that like 20 minutes ago in the, in the thingy, but she just come up with it 20 minutes later and reworded it

It's the same thing, but that's such a good idea, you know, which is, which is fine. I just get on with it. As long as the work is being done, I don't, I don't need to get the credit or anything

But as long as, uh, it's being done. That's, that's all that matters because I'm there to help create the policies and, you know, to help create the progression, to help create the developments, you know, and if it happens, even if it's not by crediting me, fine, I'm happy with that, just get it done. Yeah, that's very generous, but how many times do you think you haven't been credited for your work? Is it quite often? Actually, in the beginning, I would say I wasn't credited

Um, where, um, where I put in, I had to put in elbow, elbow grease because I had to make my voice heard, um, and it had to be something really good and worth listening to. So I had to do, really do my research. I designed logos and things like that

Um, whereas other people, they didn't have to do anything. They're just, they're part of the group because they're Uh, from a different background, you know, or a career background or something. Whereas when I, uh, when I started out, I had to really, like I said, put in that elbow grease so that I'm noticed, so my work is noticed, so my effort is noticed

But yeah, but eventually now, um. Like I went to a project last week and there were 7 people in the room. Out of the 7 people, even the person who was facilitating

Didn't do any homework. I went in with all the all my background, my research on the project, on the topic. And then it was about, uh, making a video for, um, women, uh, uh, about clinical trials

And I went in with my plans, my thoughts, where the problems are, the challenges, and what I think the solutions are. I had it all on. I didn't print it out

I had, I took my laptop. And I said, Well, actually, I've, I've, I've done my homework. And, and everybody was like, Oh my God, you know, I've put in that effort

They didn't tell me to. I'm doing a job and I want to do it to the best of my ability, hence why I spent 2 hours the night before preparing for this meeting. So I went in and nobody else had done that

Nobody. I was the only one with the, with the cha you know, sections of issues and challenges and solutions, you know, um. And, and they did notice it

They did notice it. And, and then I shared the document with everyone. But you know, that's just me, as long as the job is being done, the matters are being addressed

That's what matters to me. Thank you so much for your time. Do you have any final questions for me? Um, I don't have questions, but I have a comment and that comment is

You are just so lovely to speak to. As always. Honestly, Isaac, I, I'd, I'd love to do work with you somewhere down the line soon

I think there will be as a result of this piece of work, but absolutely, I, I love, um, working alongside you and. I know these kind of conversations aren't easy, because we're thinking at the moment. So, like, do come back to me, um, let's continue to communicate

And, um, it's been really great. And I'm very impressed that you, um, managed to get your husband to do the washing up whilst you're doing a call, cause my husband is more noisy than your husband. Um, just thank you for all of your contributions to co-production

They're really important. Um, it's been great to see them, and they are making such a difference. I, I, I love, I think that's since I've started doing this co-production everywhere I go, I tell them, you know, this is, even with the research projects and, you know, I would say, you know, it would be best to bring them on early on because, you know, I do funding applications and things like that

I would I guide them and I say, it's best to get them in early as possible. It would make your research relevant. Um, yep

So I'm gonna stop the recording there. Wish you a good afternoon. I don't forget the consent form, and then I will send Nick, um, an email just about payments and stuff

um, OK, not to worry with that. All right then. All right then, have a lovely afternoon

You too. Bye. Thank you

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