Tu Talks about Co-Production

Don't you? Yeah, I, I guess, yeah. Or maybe the hair, I don't know. Um, so can I first of all get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about what you do? Yeah, um, so I'm, um, yeah, so, as you might know, uh, I was part of the co-production, um, collective for some time. Uh, I also worked in education, um, and, and research as a teacher and someone who, who try to work with young people on sex education

Yeah. From Vietnam, so, OK, brilliant. So can I ask you, what has your experience as a racialized person or someone from Vietnam, um, or, you know, experience of co-production been? Yeah, um, so talking about um co-production specifically, right, I think, um, it is such, um, I think to me it's, it's such a revealing journey to, to like situate my experience when it comes to discussing

Um, different issues like, um, social justice or um like um the inclusion of, of young people or of marginalised groups and discussing like public health or educational um concerns in general. Um, yeah, I think, I think sometimes being part of a kind of racialized um group can kind of I think Give, give me personally some opportunity to, to look into racism as a, a structure. Um, that sometimes is not like clear or explicit, but actually it's, it's very embedded in kind of a system

For example, when people are referring to um a group as, as a collective thing, as a homogeneous thing rather than relating to um Um, people as individuals of a community. I, I, I could see that sometimes when it comes to, um, um, the news, the media talking about, um, Asians in general, rather than, um, like talking about a person with a name or a certain kind of cultural or religious or, or class um position. Um, so I think, I think there are something quite um problematic there

To address a group of people as, as if they were homogeneous. And um yeah, that is, that's what I I I find um quite um. Problematic some sometimes I really want to, to see how people discuss or analyse or challenge such an assumption of, of hidden or institutional racism

Can I ask you about, now, we've met um in co-production spaces. How many people like you are in those co-production spaces, so how many people from Vietnam, how many people from global majorities, like, what's been your experience of uh co-production and I suppose, how diverse is it? Yeah, I think, I think there are not many people from Vietnam that I know are, are conducting co-production. Um, I actually learned about this through the collective, which is, I think it, it has a lot to do with um institutions, like academic institutions or like very well-known or powerful institutions, um, rather than knowing it, um, like from someone else on, on the street or in my community

Um, so I think, but, but on the other hand, there's also a diverse city of voices, um, from some of the discussions that I, I've been joining, um, so people from perhaps from different, um, racial groups or from different like occupations or with different abilities or disabilities, um. I think, yeah, in, in terms of, uh, like the ones who, who, who participate or who have their voice um in the discussion, um, I think, I think there are also a range of, of voices, but also, um, like the work of co-production specifically seem to Um, we rooted in certain institutions that have like, um, uh, some kind of name or a kind of resources to, to facilitate co-production conversations. So I think there, there, there might be some like um constraints as well in, in how we discuss co-production or practise co-production

Has racism or um challenges around race and racism played out in any of the co-production spaces you've been involved in? Um, Yeah, so I think, I think we, we, we knew about the Uh, one incident in which, um, someone had, um, have made a command, um, uh, that might be a bit, um, That might be critical, but then, uh, someone who had a certain racial privilege might, might respond to, to that critical comment with uh, a sense of being hurt or uh being offended by that. I'm, I'm not sure. I, I don't think that's the kind of um Uh, like, uh, violent or um obvious racism, but it, it shows, uh, a sense of um privilege uh to some extent among people, especially, I think white people, um

And, um, I, I think it's just a, a sense of privilege that is really worth um talking about and if we can have um a space for people to acknowledge their privileges and also um to, to be committed to learning, um, and also unlearning certain norms, um, then, yeah, it, it, there could be more productive, um. I think uh opportunities then to tackle racism and to be anti-racist, um, but yeah, I, I haven't, I haven't, other than that, I haven't seen um incidents of, of, of racism, specifically in, in co-production work. So if we take the view that co-production is about including many different voices, um, and working in an equitable way

How much of the co-production that you've been involved in talks about. Centering racism, centering, you know, um, the needs of racialized people, so like, you know, you might start off with some values, but how, how often do you talk about like the needs of racialized people in co-production spaces? I think um I think not many of them, um. Yeah, I think people might have some um some general um commitment to promote marginalised voices

Um, and I think that, that has been um um kind of Um, yeah, played out in in many uh projects like uh people involved like different communities or different, um, like I think racialized um groups or different positions, um, um, yeah, but there seems to be, I, I, I feel like there seems to be um Uh, a constraint in terms of, um, how much we challenge, um, like the, the structures that make, uh, that create marginalised positions like that. It's like, uh, for example, we, um, we really value the voices of, of racialized, um, people, of, of black people, for example, um. But then there seems to be a limited um conversation in, in addressing what creates such um situations where, where, um, people, people who have darker skin colour, have been like subjected to violence or to, um, certain forms of subjugation

Um, yeah, I think, I think that kind of conversation has not been, um, Cred much in, in, in co-production to, to kind of learn together why we, we are here and what, what, what kind of historical or uh social factors um have like been embedded in, in our practise and how can we kind of um be very, um, I think. Honest about that and, and yeah, like be, I think first of being honest about that and also um trying to, to, to kind of undo that to some extent. How would you approach Understanding the historical context of racism in co-production spaces, like what kind of things do you think we need to do? Mm

Well, that's a very, that's a very useful question. I haven't, um, I haven't had a very clear uh initiative or, but, but I think um I think sometimes um in the co-production collective, people, oh no, sorry, uh people have some, have some kind of uh creative activities like to engage with, um with drawing or with stuff. Um, so I think, yeah, using a kind of tool to talk about history can be um inviting for people

I, I think, and also to think about um Like Uh, um, a space, I guess, to, to really central, um, the voices of, of marginalised groups. I think, um, they, certain marginalised groups, um, have certain histories and, and through that, through their like personal stories, we can learn a lot about how they view the world very differently um from us. Um, for example, someone Um, whom I, I talked to recently, um, when, when they knew about like, um, the, the far right riots, uh, against Muslims, they just felt shocked, um, and they could not imagine like, um, people could be that violent

Um, but then we should not just stop there, we can also ask for the experience of Of, uh, people who, who have known that incident themselves because of their lived experience, for example. Um, of course, there has to be some kind of um Um, safeguarding or like being sensitive to the, the, the, the one who share their marginalised, um, experience of, of, yeah, how they have been um treated with racism, for example, but I think their, their personal accounts um really matter in kind of um telling others, especially people who, who have not experienced racism um like directly. Um, about how that has, um, like how things become, became the way they are

So I guess it's, it's a combination of like personal, um, histories as well as um some kind of um ways to talk about the, the, the more social or the bigger histories that um have um kind of come even before we were born. Yeah, and can I ask you. About your own experiences of co-production

Have you ever felt like, a lot of people have said that being a racialized person, that their opinions or their voice hasn't had the same weight or privilege as white peers. So, what's your experience in these spaces as someone that's doing co-production, is from Vietnam, um, you know, you, um. Are doing this kind of work, so like I'm wondering like what your experience around like holding power, sharing your experiences

Um, sorry, um, is that about like um Sorry, I, I think the door is a bit distracting. Can you repeat that? Sorry, Isaac, I'm thinking about. These spaces are typically made up of lots of white peers

So I'm wondering about your own experiences about being heard, about being valued, about bringing knowledge to these co-production spaces, and how this is accepted by your peers. Mhm. I think when it comes to, um, racism, specifically, it, it seems like, yeah, in co-production, um, the voices of racialized, um, people are kind of centred

I could see that through some of the conversations that, that, um, the collective organised recently where um people try to like talk about. and invite, like, yeah, those from the global majority to talk and to share the experience. Um, but in, in different contexts, I, I do feel like, um, yeah, it really depends on how, um, the, the organisers, let's say, um

were themselves sensitive to issues of racism, um, or the process of racialization. Sometimes in, in some events that I joined, it, it seems, it seems like they just want to, to have a diversity of faces, um, and then, um, people who have different racial uh identity will be categorised as diverse voices. For example, they can talk about diversity and inclusion

But they, it seems like um my contributions was just um there, right? I mean to talk about the diversity um in education rather than being more um deeply integrated into the, the, I think the main content of the main structure. So, um, so if, if like, I think if my voice is included in that way, it is not the, the thing that I really want. Um, yeah

And rather, I, I think it would be great if there can be um a very um like a very central integration of, I think racialized voices into conversations. Um. And also there can be some um I think straightforward conversations about anti-racism, um, because sometimes we talk about racial bias, um, and, and we, we think like talking about racism is already good enough, but then I think to, to, we need to take a more perhaps critical stance, um, to, to challenge racism

Um, and also to, to actively learn how that Uh, I think again, that goes back to the history thing to, to actively learn how, how, how, like, um, we, we came to be racialized through different, um, personal stories or through social and economic um um situations as well. It's really interesting you you saying that racialized people being invited to hold the space of EDI not hold of their expertise. How, how? When you're in that space and that happens, how does that impact on you? Like what does that do to your, yeah, thoughts feelings and your kind of sense of belonging

Yeah, I think um Um, Sometimes it gets, if it gets like repeated like that, it will cause me a a a a bit of like. Frustration and also self doubt, like I might um I am, I, I'm, I'm unsure whether I am, uh, for example, eligible or capable of speaking in this forum, um, or it's just because of my, my skin colour or my racial identity that they invited me here, um, to, to create a more diverse picture. Um, so that, that's, there's a sense of self-doubt and also a sense of frustration also because of that, um

And I, I really want to, to see more or to, to be more kind of actively engaged rather than um being kind of there as a, a form of representation, but on the surface level only. Yeah. Do you feel that you've had the same opportunities as your white peers in relation to work and research, you know, like you do lots of stuff around training, research, do you feel like you've had the same

I suppose access and opportunity. Yeah, I think, I think in terms of um um like The policies or the, I mean, policy-wise, I think, I think I, I, I have been treated quite the same as other peers. Um, but, um, I think there are specific um situations, um, like that, that make me realise, um, like I, I, I, I cannot have the flexibility

Or the range of voices as, um, as for example, white, uh white peers. Um, for example, because of my immigration um status, I cannot work as freely as, um, um, someone who was born there, of course, uh, yeah, if, if they, if they also um born there as a person of colour, then there can be other uh barriers as well. Um, but I think, um, yeah

On the, on the policy level or um in, in, in everyday interactions, people would not know that um I can only work uh to a certain limit or I can only um do this and that. I cannot vote, for example, even when I, I saw something very unjust happening, um. Um, yeah, so

I think they they are there also a sense of of being um. Like I don't know, like it's like um. It, it seems like, it seems like I, I, I am already on, on equal levels with other peers um uh in terms of how I, I was treated professionally or with policies, but also, um, there are certain um Kind of specific situations uh in, in which because I, I was someone from, uh from another country and from another, um, uh, like racial identity that I was, um, I was not, um, considered, um, as favourably as someone else, but that's, that's, that's, I think it's very difficult to articulate, sorry

Um, but it's, it's just like, um, I mean there there is, if, if they want to design policies that really um Like, care for much you know experience. I, I think it will also be hard, um. But it's definitely important to, to, to not assume that, for example, everybody has the same um citizenship or the same um freedom or the same flexibility to work or to raise their opinions on, yeah

Can I ask you how you would describe your, like how would you describe your, uh, would you say your, your uh co-producer, researcher, like how would you describe the kind of work you do you do? Um, So I think at at co-production, specifically, I think um it's quite uh Like it is, it's quite a spontaneous thing to me. Um, sometimes there, there are projects that I really like and, and I want to join. Um, and most of the times, I think, I think I, I, I have been welcome to join and to share, uh, my views

Um, sometimes I could see the constraints, like, people might not see, uh, what I, what I say as like the kind of um. I mean, the, the I, I think, I think, I think my, my ideas were valued. But, um, perhaps because I came from a certain context, um, that is not the, the kind of status quo or the, the majority of people's context, then, um, there can be little um value perhaps to that other, other people still very much um appreciate the ideas

Um, but then, it, it just happens sometimes, um. But most of the times, I think I have been welcome to join conversations at the co-production collective and and in my, um, in, in the university that I am doing my research, I think people also have um the, the kind of same respect, um. Um, yeah, but then again, it also feels, um, some feels like sometimes, um, people might not understand fully the, the kind of experience that, that, that I have, um, that might be very um different from what they assume from a teacher or a researcher

Can I ask you how comfortable do you feel talking about racism? Mm, I think, um, it's not an easy thing. And I, I mostly feel like it's more easy to talk about with, with someone who, who I think might have experienced the same, like, for example, when it comes to conversations with you, I, I might feel like I can talk about it in, in, in more like theoretical or like in, in more, um, I can use more words to describe um Uh, what I'm, I'm thinking when it comes to um perhaps a larger community then I, yeah, there might be some, some, I think self-censoring, I'm not sure, but, but like trying to, to make sure that I, I can accommodate um. The group more because I'm, I'm not sure, um, where people can come from really

Um, and especially if they are someone who, who I think might have certain privilege. I'm not, I'm not really totally sure if they really understand or recognise or trying to, to actively um undo the, the racism um structures. Oh yeah, it really depends on, on the, the sense of, I think, how I perceive the connections within a conversation with people

Really important point. So in terms of what does anti-racism mean to you as a co-producer? Yeah, it's I think it's just. Yeah, it's very important um to me, um, as, as a co-producer, I assume people might speak a lot from their live experience, and it's important to um to kind of, um, to relate that personal experience with, I think with the bigger social structures like racism, um, and also to be perhaps mindful of our position, um

I, I mean, people might have, um, some people might have more privileges um than ourselves, and some people might have less privileges. And um when we talk about our lived experience, we also, we should not like um think of it as uh a kind of um ultimate or superior thing um in itself. Um, really it's important to, to relate that experience to others and also to the, to the broader context that we are in

And I think anti-racism is, is, um, is an important um approach to do that because um like if, if we are talking about how we are positioned um differently based on injustice and based on, um, yeah, privileges, then um it's important to challenge that is what we, we, we need to, to like, yeah, to really be a critical. About, um, that kind of structure to trying to, to dismantle that rather than just um um talk about those um barriers or injustices and, and accept things as they are. So I think anti-racism is, is um very important as a co-producer to, to kind of actively um articulate and also challenge um them

Yeah. And my last question, and you might have something for me, is what role do you see your white peers in anti-racism work? Yeah, I think um So, so I think it's, I think it's, it's almost like an i ship, um, but we, we can, we can try to define i ship uh in a bit more detail, I guess. Uh

Um, so I, I remember one time I, I, I got, um, a kind of, um, I got verbally racial, um, racially abused by, by someone on the street. And then there are some white people who, who intervened, um, to, to challenge the other racist person and also to offer some, some like, um, emotional support to me. um

And I, I think I keep remembering that experience because that's, that's not something that I, I, I encounter, uh, very frequently. And I think it's important for, for white peers to, to be able to, to, yeah, exercise their allyship that way because that, I think, first of all, they have a lot of um um They, they, they met, they have certain, sorry, they have certain um privilege, um, that makes it almost um Like Invisible to, to, to, to understand the scale or the severity of, of racism to some extent. Um, and so, so I think um with that privilege, um, position, they have a lot of capacities to, to intervene to um like, uh, to challenge something

They might not have the same emotional baggage as someone who has been racially abused. Um, so much that they, they feel very threatened or they feel um permit to react. Um, um, so yeah, as, as for example, a white person, um, I think as long as they, they actively intervene and actively learn about um The history of things and the, the unjust conditions um that create this specific um situation of of, of racism

Um, then, then I think that, that's, that's what we can, we can find um value there. And, and I think that can be a variety of ways to do so, but yeah, act intervening, challenging, learning. Um, could, could help a lot

And, and I think also, um, it's about the care for, for racialized, um, groups, or racialized people. Um, so like sometimes they, because of certain experience, they might not speak fluently or they might um refuse, um. Um, to, to, to speak about racism, for example, then we should not read that as um a kind of um uncritical position

Um, yeah, so like allow time and space to um to unfold certain trauma or certain um like I think like barriers that a racialized um um minority person might, might have um gone through I think. And do you have any final thoughts that you wanted to share with me before we come to the end of the time that we have together? Yeah, I think, I think it's, it's, it's very interesting to, to, to talk about anti-racism and also act with, with anti-racist values um at this point. Um, and I, I, I think it's, it's very, um, because, like, because race is a very important um um issue right now, but also as a categories, so I really, I really feel like um We, we would need to, to talk about anti-racism along with um economic injustices or gender inequalities or like um I mean, LGBT plus um um kind of injustices as well, um, because those intersectionality uh factors really overlap and I feel like, um, When we, we read um a situation or when we try to, to intervene, um, thinking about intersectionality that way can, can invite a lot of people to join the anti-racist, um, struggles

And I think a lot of people already. that I really appreciate like how communities of like workers or um for example, queer um people speak about Palestine or speak about the, the anti-racist incident recently. OK

And, and, yeah, I, I think, I think, um, it's, it's, it's a very, um, helpful thing, um, to see, and I, I just like, yeah, I'm, I'm continuing to learn and continuing to, to act on, on that kind of intersectional, um, practise. I see. Yeah

Thank you so much. Um, so I'm gonna, is it OK to stop the recording there? Just, uh, OK, let me stop.