Nagwai - COPY

Yes. I was really excited to try a co production, um, sort of project, having worked briefly with the coproduction collective and learned a little bit about what they were doing and what co production was. So I worked in my local community, and we met with other moms and with other, you know, we had we worked with family action. We worked with the local hospital, Um, and, you know, a group of moms and, you know, and people from the hospital, So actually, clinicians here, um, and senior, So we had really a lovely mix

Yeah, And we could have produced a project, and we applied. So there was a local call, um, for a co produced piece of work. And it was aimed at, you know, everything from pregnant women through two Children that were four years old

So this kind of fell quite nicely. Um, it was around pregnancy. And, you know, shortly after birth and women's health and services, it was to do with that, um and so we were really excited

We put together a really good application. We ticked all the boxes and made sure the objectives were really spot on. Um and then we didn't get the money

So So it was a bit heartbreaking. The first experience of having gone to try and get some money to do this. Um, and we didn't get it

So, um, I asked for feedback, and then when we got the feedback, they were very split on the application. But part of the reason, really, that they gave for not giving us money was that, um I put funding to pay women to help co produce the piece of work here. Um, and they had an objective and objection to women being paid to do the work

Um, and that they felt that it should be a voluntary thing. Um, which I just felt was not really fair for putting the time and energy that we were asking women to put, considering they had small Children. You know, it's a lot to ask

So that was our first experience of really hard gut wrenching being rejected for some money to do this piece of work. Um, but I think for me, the one thing I really learned was that, actually, um, maybe it was just the wrong funder. Yeah, and it's not to do with what we co produced and how we put up a project together

But it just wasn't the right funder, and that's all. Like, I think that's what I comfort myself in in the first rejection, do you think? Do you think in that case, the funder had understanding what co production is actually about? Or I don't think so. I mean, I think they had this sort of idea of, you know, like a rosy idea of what it was

Yeah, but actually, in reality, not really. Um, and I think they were just looking for something else. Like something with harder delivery bubbles

I suppose I know that Sounds really you know something that you can show really clearly, Whereas what we were thinking about was a more long term, um, and kind of building capacity building. And, you know, which is It's a different type of deliverable, and it's not. You can't put a photo of it and say, Oh, look with you know

So I think that probably didn't help either. Well, I don't really think they got it to be fair, even though that's what it was, you know, that's one of the things that they were looking for, Um, what was the impact of that? Because it sounds like you involved quite a lot of people in in that process and developing that, I mean, I think the impact was so several fold. Um, so I think from the clinician side, um, I think they probably had a lot more experience of rejection

So they took it quite well. I think, um, and I think they would have been happy to follow it up and try doing this somewhere else. But they just don't have the capacity

They just don't have the time to do it. And to be fair, I was kind of driving it and pulling. You know, I supposed to like the linchpin pulling it all together, and I didn't really have the time or energy or even I just felt a bit crushed to kind of follow it through

So that was from the sort of clinician side, um, from, like, the Children's services, you know, family action, that sort of sign that they were so supportive. I mean, they really were supportive, but, you know, they had a couple of other applications, so I think they've probably done this more before. So again, they were probably a bit realistic even from the start

Probably they were just more realistic about it. Um, and then from the mom's side, um, they like, I think a lot of them haven't done this type of work before, which is kind of the point. You want people that normally involved in this work to come in, And so I think, from their sort of side, it was Okay, well, I've got my baby and my baby's not sleeping

So, you know, there are other priorities, which is also why I wanted to make sure that we had money to pay the women to do this. So it was something that they could prioritise within their within their life, I suppose. And give them something that's there

Um, so I think from the mother's point of view, it was disappointing. But, you know, they were They took it Well, um, and I think the biggest impact I think was on me because it kind of made me like change. You know, my focus

I mean, it was kind of crushing, but you learn from those experiences. Yeah, and so I think for me, it just made me more determined that actually there is something in this is just that not everyone kind of gets it. And and it felt like I want to do other things within this space

And maybe I just shouldn't focus so locally. Um, it should be like I should think a bit more broadly, Yeah, and And that, you know, there's there's a there's a sadness in that, isn't it? Because I think the whole point of some of this co production stuff is that there is that local focus. But you know equally what you've highlighted are perhaps more systemic things that you're not having any impact

And also it's interesting. And again she's like just my curiosity and there's no right or wrong response, and you might not have a response to this at all, really. But is there a sense, particularly with the organisations involved, that perhaps reinforces the message that people don't take this seriously? There's no point in trying and let's just carry on playing the game and doing this in the way that we've always done it, or do you think it spurs them on to think? Actually, that's not right

We do. You mean, You mean the people involved in the production of the people funding it, But partly the people. I think I'm more interested in the organisations to the professionals and the other people involved that people funding it are a different matter entirely, I guess I guess everybody who was involved in the process potentially, Yeah

I mean, I think from a clinician side, I've always felt that the clinicians have been, you know, all the researchers, clinician researchers have always been the ones that had the greatest impact because maybe they didn't really get it before, but they got it afterwards, if that makes sense, so maybe they've never worked or they've only worked a little bit with people or patients, you know, not within their environment. And actually, when they hear what you know, you know their patients or the community says, you know, either reinforces what they already think, and it validates actually what they're doing or the direction of travel, or it just makes them consider the things that they hadn't considered or, you know, even working in a different way. I think working in a different way is difficult because they have constraints themselves

Yeah, and a lot of the time when I work with clinicians or researchers, they kind of do this separate to their work, which isn't really fair. It's not really fair. It's not part of

It's not part of their role description, and they just do it because they think there's something in it or it's important or, you know, development opportunities, networking opportunities for all sorts of different reasons. But I always felt that of everyone. I've worked with that every different point in the last sort of 434 years

Yeah, it's always had the biggest impact on the researchers or clinicians. Um, yeah, and I think that's what I was trying to kind of get to with my very bad questioning. But yeah, this this If this is an add on to the to the day job, is it worth the investment of time and energy if it results in a rejection or or not going anywhere? But I think I'm also hearing from you that going through that process does contribute to a shift in thinking

Yeah, those people. No, no, I do think it does contribute to a shift in thinking and this shift in how they deal with, you know, patients just generally, Um, and I actually think the people that are probably a bit more sceptical, actually the biggest converts, in a way, Um, you know, I mean, I've worked with, you know, actually, some really senior people. And one guy said to me, I can't believe we haven't done this before

Yeah, you know, So, you know, in some ways, I do think that, but it does. I think it does influence how they think or work, and even that they reflect that as she there's value. Like there's added value in working with people in the community for all kinds of random reasons, not just to include, you know, to improve their practise or how they communicate

Or but actually, you know, just networking. And actually, people have different networks to them. Yeah, So there might be opportunities, like random things here

Serendipitous things. Sometimes that might come along. So, for example, I worked with someone you know as part of a charity, you know, they were doing fundraising for the charity, and now we're co producing a project

Um, we actually have some money to do it, so you know, which is amazing. And that's just come from, you know, speaking to a clinician and speaking to, you know, hearing about their issues while they've been trying to fundraise for the charity. So there are some

There are some spin offs. And so when we talk about the value of co production, it's not always the straightforward thing of applying that to a specific piece of work or project or intended outcome. Because it could go in any number of different different directions

Yeah. No, I think so. I mean, I think it can go in all different directions

I mean, that's happened to me here where you start doing one thing and you end up doing something else. Yeah, Um, I think the one thing that's kind of important is to I think I mean, everyone says it is about the relationships with people and being able to build trust, So that's definitely it. Yeah, but I think there always has to be something to focus people on

Um, so when you do co produce projects, that's really good. Because you have something, you know, like a focus. Yeah, and whatever that focuses, whether it's in a structured way to co produce something specific or whether it's kind of building relationships to a new kind

It's more organic. Yeah, but they always has to be something to focus on. And I think it's also you need someone

Yeah, that kinda knows a little bit about it to make it happen. Like it doesn't just happen by magic, you know, um, having, even if it's just one person. Yeah, but everything I've done, you always need some kind of like leadership

I mean, leadership might sound like the wrong word because your co producing it and it should be, you know, kind of equal and the power balances. But you do need someone to drive in a way, Um, because I think, you know, and when your co producing it can just be like you can have a flat structure, but you still need someone to kind of push it along. Like when we when we've been co producing this project

At the moment, it's all come from ideas and speaking. Yeah, about something else here. What we're focused on, you know, something to do with women's health

Yeah, that was focused on one thing. And when you speak about that one thing. You realise? Actually, there's a whole lot of other things

Yeah, and people within the group are interested in maybe something else. Yeah. So even though you have your normal project, that you might be, you know, feeding into or advising or contributing to in different ways

They're actually for us. We had kind of like a spin off. Yeah, but again, the spinoff still needs a bit of a some kind of driving force behind it

Because you need someone that's going to arrange the meetings. Yeah. You know, make sure that it's convenient for people to make it

Yeah, and even if you have no money at the start, which is basically what happened to us, Yeah. You know, we just We just thought, Let's just try the next year and let's just try and get some money to do it properly. But in order to get some money to do it properly, you actually have to have someone's got to organise a whole series of meetings

You know, maybe you don't need to take notes at every meeting, but you do need to have some kind of notes so that you know, you can kind of channel, you know, you can move it forward and it might be moving it forward at different paces because you have to accommodate you know, everyone that's involved and that that can be difficult. But it's really important. Um, but yes, I suppose that's why I think you need someone to kind of, I don't know

I kind of say a little bit. It's like driving it, Really. It's what are the roles and responsibilities and skills that are needed

I guess that's part of the conditions that if if groups or people or organisations are serious about this thing, we call co production and what what are the conditions that are needed to make it happen? Um And so I know when we were talking earlier now where you had some other examples as well of co production, which might highlight some of the different experiences that you've had. So, yeah, do you want to talk about one of them? I think I'll talk to you a bit about this project that we're co producing, Um, and because that's quite interesting at the moment. So we're still very, very early on the progress, so we'll see how it goes, but we started off

So we have a patient and public involvement. Women's health group? Yeah. Um, and we It's such a lovely group here

And we you know, we talk about different projects, we advise on different projects, and we've I mean, we've done amazing things through the group. Yeah, like absolutely things that I never thought we would do. But the really nice thing is that actually, it's allowed us the opportunity to build relationships with each other and to trust each other because you talk about, you know, quite personal things sometimes within the group

And from that, I met a clinician just in, like, a sort of a conversation, and they were saying about some of the problems that they had here. Um, do you want me to go into the detail or I just talk Big picture. Now you can You whatever you feel highlights the, you know, illustrates the value really of co production

So no, that's that's fine. I've got time to go. Okay

So yeah. So we so from something the clinician said, which is really interesting. It was to do with inequalities in the local community and the woman that he would see within his clinic

So we kind of thought Well, actually, this is a great thing to just kind of talk about within the group. Um, so we invited him into the group, and he sort of just said a few words about it, like, not really a lot. Yeah

And then we just talked about it and some of the issues. Yeah. Um, but obviously we've got time constraints, so you can't really develop it

We just talked about it. And I think from that initial conversation, we realised there is something in this. Yeah, um, we don't know what it is, but there is something there is, like something

So then the next time when we had our meeting, um, again, we had one of the clinicians come in and just talk about it a little bit in more detail. Yeah, and sort of try and get to the kind of deep rooted problems and what we could do and how how we could do it. And that was really helpful, because it helps kind of narrow down, you know, from this amazing idea where we think there is a problem we can narrow down It's like, actually where the inequalities and what is the root problem to the inequalities

And what is it that we can do to? Um, I don't know, address them. I suppose that a really local micro level really with the idea is this Just start. You have to start somewhere

So from that, we kind of got a working group together. Yeah. So this is what I mean

It's like, you know, it's up to one of us here to set up the meetings. Yeah. So we set up some meetings to kind of try and still Yeah

So we had clinicians slash researchers. We had women from the community, and we actually invited some students as long as well, as some really young medical students who have been amazing. Really? Yeah, we kind of thought Okay, well, we sort of refined the idea together

It's like, Okay, so we want to get some money. Where are we going to get some money from to try and do this? I think that's always, like, such an important aspect of it. And it took quite a few meetings and we decided, you know, on a funder, put together an application And then we had an opportunity out of nowhere

Yeah, to try and get, um, somebody somewhere else. So, actually, we had to shift What? We were where we were going for, um, somewhere else, but the idea was the same. It's just that it's just how it's framed

Yeah. Um, so we actually have some money now. So now we were starting to project manage together

So this working group, you know, co production group, you know, we were starting the road ahead. Really? But I feel like we have big ambitions for it. And at the moment, we're just learning

So we just want to actually try this on the ground and see what actually comes out on the ground. Whether our ideas within the group match the reality. Uh huh

Can any any learning that comes out of that reality, Um, with an idea that we actually want to do a bigger piece of research, but we don't know what it is. We just think that there's something there. So that's why we've got to do the initial learning to see if there really is something there

And what kind of things are coming out? Yeah, it's fascinating again. There's so much in that in that you know, the way that you described the amount of time that has just been invested into the people and the relationships and even just talking through, uh, what seems, you know what may seem to a lot of people like a really small issue. And what's that kind of led to what? I suppose what I'm interested in just listening to is what? What your what your role in this is and how you've got to this point yourself as somebody who is co producing, um, in this context, yes

So it's a bit random. So again, sometimes very serendipitous things. So the initial project I was doing was because I got involved with co production and collective in a very early stage, and I was just interested what they were doing, what is co production

And that's why I got involved with them. Yeah, So I was trying. I was transitioning from, you know, having a proper job, you know, in a proper environment due to kind of doing something that I was more passionate about

Um so I thought, Oh, this is an opportunity to learn through the coproduction collective and some of their projects. So then, from that stage, I tried to co produce locally a local project, which is the one that didn't get funded. But I basically took the learning from the coproduction collective to kind of drive and pulled together a group for that initial idea

And so and then the second part of it was I was actually I've been part of the patient Public Involvement Group in East London. Katy's team. It's called since its formation in 2015

So I joined. I already had a baby. Then I got pregnant

I had another baby here. So you know, I've been part of the group for a long time, and a lot of members have, you know, come in at different points here. And so I've met them and we've kind of got to know each other

Um, and my role has really been about Let's just make it happen. Yeah, let's just make it happen. We wanted to do this

Let's just let's just do it. Um, but, you know, at the same time, it's difficult because, you know, you have, you know, you've still got to pay for your costs at home. So you know, there's only so much time and energy you can actually give to it

And I think that's why it takes so long because you have to fit in. You know, you have family caring responsibilities you've got in laws to look after. You know, you've got to pay your bills

You know, there's so many other constraints, but my role really as being just a champion. It and, you know, I've organised meetings and let's just get everyone together. And then I passed a responsibility onto the students

I'm like you organise the meetings here, and I'll help in other respects. So, uh huh Is your involvement in voluntary in this, or is this information Yeah. So, yeah, it's voluntary

Really? Um, right from the start, I mean, when I started with the coproduction collective, there were small funds to help pay for my time to do that, which was very helpful. And when I've been in the patient Public Involvement group, for example, there have been again, like, really, really small funds to pay for us to do that. But we do it because it's important to not just me, but to everyone but everything else

We've just kind of done off. I've just done it off my own back and within my own time and you know, it's it's a lot, but I just feel like it's important and I wanted to do it, so I just prioritise it. And I'm lucky enough that my husband really supports me and, you know, you look after the kids while I just work, you know, those type of things

Um, what kind of enables me to do it? And, gosh, the yeah, impact of that, then on on me, that makes me feel a bit like something's not quite right here in terms of if this is making such a big difference to yourself and to the people that are in your network and potentially to the professionals and organisations that you're kind of working alongside, that's something about the value of this is skewed somewhere along the line that are the resources in the right place. Is that Does it feel like that? Yeah. No, it definitely feels like that

I mean, really, I should have just gone back and done a proper job like financially. That's what makes sense here for me and my family. Yeah

I mean, it's the big sacrifice. Um, I mean, luckily, I helped start up a charity, so I work part time for the charity, and that's kind of help me. Mhm, kind of

I mean, cost neutral in a way, so it doesn't really, You know, I have some support here. You know, if I didn't have any kind of income, this would be completely unsustainable. Yeah, and actually, when I had a proper job, there's no way I could have dedicated this much time or energy

You know, you come home exhausted, you've got the Children, which, you know, you want to spend some time with them here. And then I had caring responsibilities with my in laws. So you just have, like, zero energy

So you might be able to attend a meeting at lunchtime. Or you might be able to have a look at a document at some point. You know, I remember being on holiday and looking through a document, and my husband's like What the hell are you doing? I'm like, if I don't do this now, yeah, I'm not going to have a chance to do it

Yeah, so you go you know, take the kids out and let me just have a couple of hours to just look at this here. So I do think there's something skewed in the system and actually, when I reflect back on the impact, that not just me but our patient public can grow involvement group has achieved here. I mean, it's amazing

We're doing all kinds of things here. Or like it's not just me here. We have other people who are doing really impact in really impactful roles within the UK

We've done some work internationally here, and this is just from our little kind of patient and public involvement group. Um, and now we've got this kind of local cool coproduction type project kicking off. That's really our baby

Like we've always been involved in other things or champion, you know, other causes. Yeah, but this is like our baby that we've kind of made happen ourselves. But, you know, it's taken investment of, you know, a lot of years to get to the point where a we even consider that we can do this, be that we can prioritise it, see that we have some experience, so we don't know everything, but we know a little bit, and we're going to just try from that, you know? And it has to be all these things, you know, kind of slotting in together to actually make it happen

So I do think, you know, there is something systemic that, you know, could work better to really harness everyone's, you know, enthusiasm. Um, and everyone wants to have an impact in some capacity in their lives. Yeah

Even anything small, You know, whether it's, you know, help a lady you know, across the road. Yeah, Or you create, you know, you you start a huge research project, or you you help your hospital, you know, advise them in some kind of health capacity or or you read to your child at night. Yeah, um or you know what I mean

So I think everyone has in Italy something really positive within a year, and it's enabling the environment around them to bring out the best in everyone. Yeah, that's that's so powerful. Norway, Um, and again I know, sent me off on the whole whole kind of train of thought around

Does the system really value? Um, does it feel like the system really values what what you do. And I'm guessing there are individuals within that and your direct experience in terms of what you're doing. But does it Do you feel that the kind of wider change or what you want to impact what you're contributing is our value

I mean, I definitely it's weird because I feel like I'm in a position now where I can actually reflect and you can actually see The difference is you've made. So I deep down, I know that I've had an impact, you know, different, you know, to different degrees in different places. Um, but, you know, the system also has some really amazing things

Yeah, for example, the National Institute of Health Research here. They really have, you know, systemic processes to enable public members to contribute to research to what is funded, you know? I mean, really, and it's something. So even though systemically, there's lots of problems in different places, there's also really good examples of amazing, you know, work

And it's only when you kind of step out of the u. K. I think that you realise just how lucky we are

So even though in the U k. You know that this doesn't work. This is a problem that this is a pain, you know

But when you look outside of the UK, you realise, actually, within the maturity level of this type of work were actually a lot more, you know, a greater maturity than in many other places. And I feel to me like I if sometimes I'm frustrated, I just reflect on that. And you know that that's important, too

And, um so So, yeah, there's a really amazing examples. And for me, the work I've done within NIH are has been amazing. You know, I feel like there you definitely I've definitely had an impact

Um, and I feel so thankful for that. And actually, I've learned so much as well. Um, so So there are good practises, you know, even with the coproduction collective

I mean, I've learned so much, and it's really you meet all these people who are so protecting that you've never meet in a normal life. And I always feel when I attend something, you feel like you get energy from other people and just hearing other people. Don't worry that the background chaos here carry on

Oh, No. But, you know, you get energy from other people, and actually, that's something really valuable from the coproduction collective. Um, sometimes I go away with ideas

Sometimes you go away just with positive energy or with, like, a can do. Okay, You know what? We can do it. Let's just make it happen somehow

Yeah, And that's just from the energy from speaking to people. Sometimes you consider things that you've never really thought about. You know, um I mean, I know I had a conversation with someone, um, you know, and it just really made me think about that

And actually, now we've actually done something. You know, I really lobbied for this year within the systems and the processes, and now we're doing something really amazing that's going to be launched soon with mysterious money behind it here. And that came out of this conversation with this lady

Um, and I'm just so thankful for that because she made me see things on the ground from a different perspective. Um, and I took that perspective somewhere where I could have an impact. And, you know, that kind of it's not just me like that, Aligned with different priorities and different people, but and they were ready for it

So but now it's like, Wow, something amazing is going to happen. Um mm. With serious money, which is the other thing

Yeah. And so in that sense, you are really getting to the heart of it and beginning to realise that the value No, I mean, the financial side of it is is not It's not the biggest thing here, is it? I think what you've described as everything else, it's the people, the relationships, the conversations that the encounters, the the ideas that are generated that have led to, you know, being able to, um, uh, secure funding, I guess to it in a different way. And you kind of like, it's that it's that chicken and egg thing for one of the really better phrasing

You know, you could come up with ideas and get funding, but it might not actually lead to the same outcome as if you go through the process in the way that you've described it in terms. I mean, definitely. I do think there really like there is something to be said about having some financial options

Yeah, because you know I don't know how to say in, like, a nice way, but I've been very lucky. Yeah, And there's been quite a few times where I thought, What the hell am I doing? Like this is just ridiculous. Yeah, I'm losing money

I'm going to work and losing money. You know, at one point, I was paying for my child to go to nursery here, and I'm earning less money, you know, or no money here. And I'm having to pay to be able to learn or to be able to have these opportunities here

And I mean, and for so many times, I just thought, You know what? I should just go and get a normal job. Yeah, but I just stuck it out. And it's only looking back now that I think I'm so glad I stuck with it

Yeah, even when financially, it was really difficult. Yeah. Um, and even now it's like I'm not really back to where I was before

Yeah, it's just that now I'm doing something that feels really meaningful to me. And also it gives me flexibility around my other You know, my caring responsibilities as well. Um, but I think I don't know

You don't. It feels bad to say the money is important, but it is important because, you know, sometimes I would do something and they'd actually pay for my child care here. And you think, Well, that's one less day I've got to pay for the child care here and and the other thing, it's like even if I do it for nothing, it is like stuff like the child care or yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense

And that's a really strong Um, that's a really strong message for people to hear, I think is that what is the impact on what do people actually really invest in this? And if you were to put a value on co production based on what you've described in terms of your time, the costs, the investment, what actually would that begin to look like, um, in terms of yeah, Sometimes it's not really even that obvious. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times people are happy to not, you know, not getting paid for their time

Yeah, and for many years, that was the case for me as well. It's just that as you learn and you want to take it more seriously and you want to drive things again. It's like you want to champion and drive, then

Actually, it really is important to have some kind of financial stability within it. Um, I don't know what the right answer is. I mean, sometimes I think in other aspects of business and, you know, health care or whatever, you know, they, you know, the citizens invest in people

Yeah, they don't just invest in the piece of work. Yeah, but they invest in developing people. And actually having something like that, I think, would be really helpful

I mean, I would have really appreciated that. And that's not to say that I should have got any kind of money for this year. But I feel like if I had financial stability and support early on, I could have done what I'm doing now

A lot sooner and a lot better. And even like you're always learning in that life here. But, you know, I think I would have been able to do more and better sooner

Wow. And easier as well, you know, because you don't have the worry of everything else in, you know, the burdens of your normal life. You know, even your health burdens

Yeah, because it takes a toll on your health. And, you know, sometimes there's only a physical like this, you know, like physically you just can't do it. So even if you want to do it, yeah, physically, you just can't do it

So to have some kind of remuneration to enable that time that you are able to do it to focus. Yeah. And then it also has an impact on you physically, because mentally you feel like, okay, all these problems that I'm having, But I'm actually doing something for good or focusing channelling that into something really positive

So even from just a mental health perspective for you as a person is really meaningful and helpful. And then when you're in a group talking to others, it's like peer support, because then you realise I'm actually not alone. Someone else has this problem as well

And you know, so you feel like a sense of, um yeah, like peer support, I suppose, in the process of co producing something, you know. Yeah, which, coming back to where we started in terms of the funding bird and it's not been successful because actually, one of the core things so that was being able to value the time of the people that you wanted to contribute to that project, is it's kind of ironic, um, in terms of, you know, your investment in this and, yeah, I know. You know what a lot of the women that I work with as well

Okay, you know, you know, they have lots of Children here. It's like their time commitment. I've only got two

Yeah, but it's like so when you know, it's really it is difficult. And I think the other thing I wanted to say was about a different coproduction thing that I've done as well. So, um, I worked with the coproduction collective and one of my other colleagues

Friends? I don't know. I don't know how we refer to each other, you know? I mean, in essence, she's my friend. Yeah, but we work together, so it's kind of sometimes it's weird to know what to call each other, I suppose

Um, but alongside the co production collective, we worked on a co producing some training. And that was an interesting experience as well. Yeah, and I learned a lot from that because I've done training before

Yeah, you know, in my work life or even, you know, speaking at different events. But this was really interesting because we developed the ideas together and you're bouncing off and you're looking okay. This is what they want to achieve and what a different ways

And you can be creative. Um, and that's actually really nice as well. To have space to just do something

Oh, yeah. I've always wanted to do that. Let's try doing that

And then when we were in the training were like, Well, we don't know if it's going to work, but we're going to try it and see here, And then they you know, then you feel like a collective sense. We're trying this together for the first time, and even that's a leveller as well. Um, within

And that was really interesting because we had several sessions, um, co producing the training, Um and yeah, it was interesting. All of us had something to contribute in different ways and at different like, you know, sometimes maybe it's about learning about practical actual knowledge here. Other times, it's around how you deal with people or about troubleshooting things

You know, um, you know, like I mentioned about childcare. Well, actually, you need to make sure that people are able to attend. You know, if you have a baby and you're breastfeeding, Yeah, it's like you have to take your baby with you

So you're going to have to have changing facilities in wherever you're meeting. Yeah, Or if you're meeting at home, you're going to have to, you know, know that someone might need to leave in a minute or might have a baby, or they might cry. Or they might need to go and change the baby

So again, it's a bit about the flexibility as well. Yeah, I know about yeah. Makes a lot of sense in terms of that experience you've just described around co producing training

What do you think? The impact of all the benefit of developing training in that way was for people on the receiving end on the receiving end. Yeah. I mean, I think it was twofold, really

One was around the relationships, so kind of like a leveller. You don't know how they say about the different power dynamics within the room. So In a way, it's kind of a way to level the room, and it doesn't matter who you are, like we're all trying to do this together

It's like that. It's like the cultural thing from the training and, you know, like you set the tone, you set the tone from the training and how you're facilitating the training, the kinds of things that you're doing. So I think one is around

That is quite a bit, um, it's more interesting than in other cities scenarios that I've been with. The other thing is that you can be really creative. Um, like, you can still get the same output that you need, but just in a weird kind of way

I mean, I've never worked like that before. Yeah, so it was new to me as well. So I learned along the process also, Um, but, you know, it's around

Oh, shall we? You know, how should we frame the question? Yeah, So you might frame the question in an open, more open way, Or you might framed the question from a different angle. Maybe from a more personal angle. Perhaps

So I think I think there's an element to that I don't know. It's kind of in a weird, tangible way. Really

Um and also it's just like fun. Yeah, you know, it's like you go to training sometimes it's a bit dull. And you're like, OK, you're doing this because you have to do this

But actually, when we've done the follow up trainings, people actually remember because we did kind of walk, you know, you know, a bit different stuff to what they normally do on the training. Um, or you remember something random that someone said, Um, so it was something for them to look forward to. I think as well

Yeah. Sorry. I'm just scribbling down some notes here because you've sparked me off on another train of thought, which is not related to this at all

But just just hearing you describe that experience, um, and the benefit to organisations have just stopping and thinking, you know, the other thing, you know, the open thing was that actually like we've made networks? Yeah, So even within. So for instance, someone that was working is doing something that's not a million miles from things that I'm trying to do. So even though we haven't worked together, and maybe we won't work together

But I actually know someone is doing this piece of work here, and they'll know that I'm doing something else because we've shared this within the sessions. Yeah, Um, so, actually, I've I actually recommend them, you know, or linked. Other people said, Oh, you might want to look at what this group is doing

Yeah, um, it's really interesting. And they're doing it like this, so even you might not necessarily connect them, or you might not connect them at this point, but it's an opportunity yet to create potential opportunities. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Especially in in my world

And this world of co production is it Is those the connections and things, you know, And even just from these conversations with people, you know, the connections that you make and how that kind of grows And it's a bit Spider's Web E, I guess. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. No, it's true

It is a bit like that. And I think it's really difficult to quantify that. Yeah

I mean, something else. Like, if you think about zoom meetings. Yeah

And you think about I don't know, like an office environment even. Yeah, you think? Actually, it's something that being in the office is really valuable is going to the coffee machine here or to the tab to get some Walter here because or you're going, you know, down to the lobby to go and get some lunch because it's at those points where you actually bump into people. Yeah, and that's one thing you can't really do assume you have

It's all got to be quite scheduled online, but when you're in physical contact, you have opportunities for serendipitous conversations or you're working on that. Are we doing this or why are we you know, why are we doing this together? Or actually we Someone needs to be, you know, linked in with you or something. So those those opportunities, it's How do you put a value on that? It's a bit like, you know, how do you put a value on that? Those networks in Spider way sooner

But you know there's value. It's just, uh huh. You know, people think of value in financial terms

It's like, how much money is this generating or how much benefit you know, how much money is it saving? How much benefit is. So in order for decision makers at the very top here to enable funds to do co production work, you have to align it. Yeah, and give them something really tangible

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the thing with co production or those interactions that I've spoken about, It's difficult to put a number, Yeah

.