Kamran Talks About Co-Production

So you should get a thing saying recording progress. So first of all, can I get you to introduce yourself? Sure, uh, hi, Isaac, I'm Cameron, Cameron Malik, Chief Exec of Disability Rights UK. Thanks Cameron. Um, what's your experience of co-production been? Generally, I think uh so within Disability Rights UK it's a commitment we've made

To bring co-production in, I think, without confusing it with what co-production isn't, and really thinking deeply about, starting to think really deeply about it to see what does it actually mean to properly co-produce and not do it as kind of, um, you know, a half-hearted attempt or disguise it as co-production when it actually really isn't, it's more consultation or engagement. And so we, I think as an, as an organisation we're on a bit of a journey to say we know about co-production, we believe in its values, how do we make that happen in our organisation, and at what points. Is co-production the right tool to be using and at what points within your organization's life, is it not the right tool to use and, and

So yeah, we're going through that, um, and attached to that is not only understanding. What true co-production looks like, but actually, what are the resources needed to really make it happen and enable that in making sure that everyone you're engaging with has the ability to engage with that process and to be, feel, um, that they have value and, um, kind of the whole power dynamics that exist, how do you manage all of that? So yeah, we're, we're, we're kind of learning, um. And we, we, we believe it's, it's, it's something we absolutely want and should have in our organisation based on who we are

So you, when I'm asking these questions, you, you can draw on any experience at all. So I'm wondering about, so this project or piece of work is really trying to understand how people from racialized communities experience co-production. So I was wondering like if you had, um, any views, comments, like how do people, or how are you or how are you thinking about kind of the racialized perspective of co-production

So, it's interesting that when I think about me, just as an individual, have I ever been actively involved in some form of co-production that's not related to my job or that, you know, an organisation that I'm managing? The honest answer is no, I haven't. I've never really been approached and said, we're doing something locally or in an area that I'm interested in, and we'd like to co-produce that, and we'd love you to potentially join it. So I've never actually had the experience of

Just being there as a participant of co-production rather than being a chief exec or something of an organisation. So I've not actually experienced that from that perspective, but what I do know in this space, just I've been in the voluntary sector, not for profit sector for pretty much my whole career. And it is heavily dominated at

In in in in a lot of ways by white people, uh, that is what the majority seem to be of people I interact with, who I have to engage with and. The immediate thing around co-production for me as someone, and what I've experienced is often the language that is around it, is how that translates and what it means to someone, uh, from a different background and whether that language translates and is explained well, um, to people so that people actually understand what it is. um

So I think, I think, so I personally haven't experienced through co-production as a participant of that process, um, but then I also recognise that within. The not for profit sector, it's quite heavily dominated by White individuals, um, and certainly at senior levels, it's predominantly white, male. I mean look at that kind of standard, um, stereotype that we often hear, uh, exists in that space

Um Yeah, so. Interesting, like, so I had to assumed that you were involved in lots been invited to do lots of co-production just you as Gambron. Um, and that hasn't been the case

Um, I'm just wondering about. Your journey at Disputed Rights UK and co-production, cos I'm wondering around like you talked about power and so when you are representing Disability Rights UK or in spaces, how diverse is, how diverse are those spaces? Again, you know, it varies. So I was at an event on Saturday, uh, which is, uh, a part of our leadership programme and was in a room with, I think it was 15 to 18 counsellors from around the country and

I, you know, just purely just by seeing people right and and not wanting to make assumptions. Just by seeing people, there was certainly no people from Asian or black communities there. Well, sorry, there was one person there, um, out of 18, um, who was visibly from a different culture

And so often you do find yourself in spaces where it's not as diverse as you'd want, or you what you think it should be. Um. But we certainly within DRU UK we're making real efforts to try and make sure that we're actively reaching out, that we're actually trying to communicate and listen to those diverse communities, and you, that's work you have to do

It doesn't just happen, um, because if it was just going to happen, it would just be there already, and the fact that it isn't means that the way that we communicate and the the the messages that we give and what we represent. Doesn't speak to particular communities and people from particular backgrounds, so you have to be. You have to proactively do that and engage and listen and understand the perspective of those individuals and why they choose not to engage with you, or what their experiences have been when they've tried to engage either with us or with other similar type organisations and really listen to what they're saying, what that experience was and make sure that

That's a learning point for us to say how do we make sure we're just not repeating those issues and, you know, we're, we're doing things around that by uh. Having, for example, a a group around um intersectional DPOs, uh, so actively engaging with it and actually really listening and allowing them to be. Angry and to show frustration and

And, and kind of delving into what that's about, and where that's coming from, what do we need to do, and how do we, how do, how do they help us to, to drive the process forward, um. That's that, that's what we're doing, yeah. Yeah, it seems like you're certainly on a journey

I'm wondering about, and please do feel free not to answer this. Have you, as a leader and as a, um, brown man, experienced racism within these spaces? And do people share with you, like, experiences of racism? Um, cause you talked about anger and I was wondering, are people experiencing racism in these spaces? Um, I think, I think people do find it difficult to just come out, open up and share their experiences. I think it takes time when you build rapport and trust with people, then people do start to talk about how they've felt marginalised, excluded, um, not valued, or that they're

That their experience is not the right experience in that space. So people do start to, that takes time, because that, you know. And I have to remember that when people see me, what comes along with it is a job title

And Often I, I, you know, I almost don't want to share my jobs because that's almost irrelevant in the sense, I am a person and I'm interested in. The experience of people from black, Asian, and other kind of racialized backgrounds and communities. And if I can help open those doors and facilitate those conversations and I want to

So yes, sometimes people do, um, but, but. I wouldn't say It's a daily occurrence of people telling me that, um. But yes, you know, people have talked to me about it

How important do you think it is to have spaces where we talk about race, racism in the work that we do? It's essential, uh, growing up. I Don't remember being in any organisation where it was discussed or talked about, or even acknowledged that. What comes with Discrimination, exclusion, injustice, all those things, is levels of trauma, uh, how you then respond to certain scenarios, um, how you might become kind of introverted as a result, or you might

Come across as argumentative. You know, those kind of different polar opposites of how people respond to situations. So I, in organisations where I've been working, and I've worked both in local authority, I've worked in the not for profit sector

I've not had that space where I've been able to just talk about it and explore it and actually learn myself about. What experiences I'm having, um, and why they are not the same for everybody. Um, I think and it for me it kind of mixed up with being a disabled man and being an Asian disabled man, those things get mixed up or is it, is it because I'm, I'm a disabled person, I'm experiencing this, or is it because of my colour? A combination of those things

And trying to, and I think it's really important to try and create, and I don't have the answer exactly of how, how we do that. Completely successfully, but how do you create trusted spaces if people genuinely feel I can say my piece without it being held against me or used against me or noted down as oh Cameron said this, you know. But actually honest open transparency and shared experiences, I think

That's the bit that I always try and create within my organisation where I have control of that and say. That's really important to me, but I hope it's important to everybody because. Those experiences that you've had inform who you be who you are

And how you are in, in a space. And how you behave and how you respond to things. Um, I think if you're, if you know, when you compare that

Someone who walks out their front door in the morning and doesn't ever think about the colour of their skin cause it's not an issue. You don't ever have to think about that. Um, But a lot of us have to do that all day, every day

Mm. Yeah. How does that make you feel? Oh I just knowing that that it's, you know, it can be exhausting if you

So sometimes I try not to even think about it, I just kind of let it wash over my head cause I just think if I spend every day of my life responding to any. Kind of the microaggressions, the kind of reactions, the comments, the questions, um. It, it just becomes incredibly draining

And I think I, I want to live a happy life. Part of that happiness has to come with sometimes just allowing that stuff to. Just kind of wash over you, uh, you know, some people might say that's not the right attitude

I think I, so I, I choose to tackle it, but not all the time every day, um, cos I just want to go about my life and, and do, you know, be with my family and my partner and all those kind of things. It's interesting cos what we've heard in these 20 odd stories is that racism doesn't. Just exists in the workplace that people are experiencing it every day, and there are different ways that you can respond

And you started to talk about um. DI UK Distribute Rights UK's journey and these kind of spaces where we can talk openly and honestly about our experiences. Like, do you have a vision what this, this might look like in the future and what we might practically do to kind of have these conversations? Lots of people have talked about the need for difficult conversations, but they haven't qualified what they are

Do you have any views on what they could feel and look like? What you think of when you think of Disability Rights holding these spaces? Yeah, so I've thought a lot about it and we're trying some stuff out within the organisation. So we have just set up, for example, quarterly all staff meetings, all, all day. So a whole day dedicated to just us as an organisation coming together as a diverse team, encouraging everyone to try and come physically into the same space if they can

But if not, to join us remotely, and there will be. Sections within that day, which will be a bit more unscripted, it will be more kind of topic based or, and that will, that will take time because while there is professional element of trust within the organisation, within each other, we need to now create more kind of personal trust with with each other. And that has to start, I think, by me being open and honest and kind of

Showing a a a a a a vulnerability of yourself, that I'm what I'm sharing makes me feel vulnerable, but I feel that that's important because that gives permission, allows people to think, well actually, He said this, so I should say something. So, I've never shared openly in DR UK about racism. I experienced from a young child from, from a young age, from the moment I landed in the UK at the age of 6 and went to school, almost on day one, I suddenly realised, oh, you know, why am I being called all these things and being bullied and hit and all this stuff? It's only later I, you know, I, I slowly discovered it was because I was brown and not white

And that kind of has gone through your life and, and we don't openly talk about it partly because it's painful to yourself. And you kind of suppress these things and you hide them and you think that's not who I want to be. But I think that vulnerability is really important because it shows people that actually I've experienced that and I want to talk about that because that's my shared experience with you

And how does that inform what the organisation does and what it says and how it. prioritises. That kind of importance of that experience

In the work that we do, whether it's policy work or whether it's, um, you know, project-based work, whatever it might be, it has to be informed by that. Just as we are very good at looking at lived experience as disabled people, we talk very openly about those things. It's bringing in this additional element to say, um, and so you know, it's not just

Race And disability, but it's race, it's gender, it's sexuality, it's the whole piece to say we've got to be our authentic selves, but that takes time and trust and. Effort and consistency and showing that we we we're genuine about it and. Being true to that, um

So that that's what we're gonna try. So we're gonna have those moments, uh, quarterly, uh, where, you know, the first one that we'll do in the first quarter. I've been thinking a lot about it, that what I need to do is I need to feel comfortable in me saying all these things, because it makes me nervous

Because it, it evokes a reaction, you know, that kind of physical reaction. Um My physical reaction, I, I know that this happens to me when I talk about this stuff, is I feel almost shivery. Uh, it's almost like, cause someone looks at you, they think, oh, you're cold

It's not I'm not cold, cold, but it's just, it's that emotional response. I think. That, that, and you just I have to be comfortable with that because

People may notice that and that's OK. um, but hopefully that opens the space to say actually we can talk about this, it's OK. um

Yeah, that's what, that's what we're gonna, that's how I see it. OK. Interesting, cos I have had, and, and we've been in the spaces together where racism has come up in terms of your experience of accessing health and care systems, um

So I'm wondering about, so DR UK doing these, creating these spaces and opportunity. What does this mean for sort of the DDPO sector? So like, are people, um, and you'll know this much more than I, are people in the DDPO sector having conversations about race? Is race acknowledged as something that. Is playing out, like racism playing out in these sectors um

I, well, I think, I think organisations certainly. recognising it, um. Particularly, I think, you know, there have been moments recently in history that I brought a real focus on

this point and so you know, the Black Lives Matter movement. Has really made. Both DPO leaders and their staff really think actually, what are we doing in that space and what should we be doing about it, and there is some good work going on

Um But you know, what, what, what you see in the leadership of a lot of the DPO sector is that needs to also start to shift as well. We need to see more diverse leaders within the DPO community who take up senior roles, who are on boards, and that we, we support and facilitate and encourage that and find ways of making that happen. That needs to be, that needs to also shift

Um, because if you, if you're thinking about it and you recognise it and you're doing some work around it. Well then that stuff needs to change who you, the organisation, who you are as well, cos otherwise it's just a piece of work that you did, but it had no. Material impact on you as an organisation

And. I think that's so part of my role and DRUK's role is to try and Be a role model for that, to say, well, how are we doing that? And how are we actively trying to bring people in from different communities who maybe wouldn't have thought of working in our sector or work with the UK. And we have got, you know, there's one particular person who comes to mind, who actually said to me that I never thought to work in this sector until you you, uh, promoted your opportunity through a particular agency

That I connect to because they, they are particularly around diversity. That is their main focus and because you advertised and they got it in front of me and then I had the conversation with the advisor who said, yes, this is a piece of work, and now they're working for us and they're brilliant. Uh, and they bring such a different perspective, different lens on our work

It's, it's wonderful, um. So kind of Being the role model as an organisation is important. And how do you? Cos what I've heard is like lots of people trying to do stuff

How do you see taking, like, so how are you gonna take people along the journey with you, um, like have you got any tips that you might. Want to share in, cos a lot of organisations have talked about we need to do something, but I haven't really thought about how the how, um, so. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting and and so you know we're doing the piece around

Being an anti-racist organisation. While it is an internal piece of work about the organisation, the longer term plan for that is that it becomes a public document facing document. This is how we did it

This is what we learned, this is where we've got things wrong, and this is what we're doing about it. And why is this right and important, and then and, and so. Being transparent about where we get stuff wrong gives permission to others to then say, OK, yeah, I don't have all the answers, and neither did they, but they've gone on a journey

So what we want to do is do, do the work ourselves, share it with our DPO community and or leaders. And then help them make that same journey to say, well, you, you know, you're a member of DRUK and we would like you, kind of almost expect you to then go on this journey and we'll support you. Um, and at the same time trying to work with funders to say you've got to fund this work

This doesn't just happen, it has to be supported financially as well with resource. And I, I, you know. It's always hard as a leader to, because I guess sometimes as leaders you get stuck in this thing of, I've got to know the things I've got to do to change it

And sometimes starting with that blank sheet can be really hard. Um, which is why we wanted to do it with external people to come in who are the experts to tell us. So that we don't have this blank sheet, we actually have a working working plan to say this is what we've got to do

And then to be able to share that openly and transparently and there's some, there's some inherent risk in that, isn't it, when you share stuff about your organisation internally to, to the outside world, because you might get some, uh, well, you might get negative response to that, you might. That's OK, you know, we, we don't have all the answers, but, um, so that, that's so your question was about how do, how do we, how do other organisations do something? I mean from our perspective it's about showing what we've done, how we did it. And supporting them A lot of people, Cameron, thank you for sharing that

It seems like there's a real focus on this, um, at Disability Rights UK. I'm wondering about the link between history and experience. A lot of people talked about, like, history being, and, and racism and

You know, colonisation and slavery and all those kind of things. Are these conversations that are, you have at Disability Rights UK like, um, and are people, like how are you creating that space to, for people to talk about, you know, anti-oppressive, uh, ways of being or slavery or racism. Yeah

So, I think that's the part of the journey that we're on, is that we have this common understanding of what our history tells us and where this comes from. And, um, so I'm very open. So, I went to Manchester recently and I went to, uh, the Manchester Library, where there was an exhibition about how a lot of the institutions in Manchester and the library and the library and the university itself is built on money that was from the slave trade

And it's all around us. And So when I came back to the organisation, I shared that with staff to say, you know, I went on this really fascinating exhibit and it just opened my eyes, even though I kind of you know about it, till you see it and read it and see the documentation and where this money came from that built the institution you're currently sitting in. That's incredibly powerful

And uh so kind of just being open to sharing that to say to, you know, this is just important, I just wanted to share it with people. Um we, we did a statement on um what's happening in the Middle East. And that opened up a huge conversation internally because staff

Some staff were very vocal about wanting to do a statement, others were a bit cautious and nervous and didn't know. Others were saying, well, I don't really feel qualified to make any comments because I don't know the history. Uh, the board were involved, so we had everyone have a, have a conversation and really open to just being challenged to say, and even I said, you, you know, I don't know everything about the Middle East history, but I'm learning a lot more right now because I'm actively reading about it

Um, so we did do a statement and that's, that then opens up a conversation internally to say, When is it right for us to make a comment? But even if it isn't right for us to make a comment, but to have that conversation if it's important to people. Um, and this particular issue was important to our staff because we had staff who were from that part of the world. Um, and on the board, and they had a strong reaction to it

And that was really important, that we didn't try and say, Well, this isn't the place for having that strong reaction because it absolutely is, and because we're a rights and justice based organisation, therefore. Those issues are important to us, even if I mean it because with disability, that that's our core work, disability applies to anything and everything because it's. It's not a particular group of people

And so actually we can and should have a view on things, even from a disability lens, but the injustices of intersectionality that people are experiencing. So we, we do, and we've got some people that are far more, um, well read in this area, because academically they've done courses or they have a particular passion. Others don't feel, I feel very nervous and almost scared of saying anything because they think they're going to say the wrong thing

So again it's that thing of what can we share, reading material, videos, um. Dramass on TV and so we try and share those with each other. So look, watch that, that's a really interesting one and it's a very good programme to watch, um

There's, you know, there's a programme on. BBC with David Padil. Um, about how How Jewish people feel that they'd almost not

Not thought about OK, and that was a really interesting programme because it opens your eyes from that perspective. Um, And so kind of sharing that sort of stuff internally. Sounds really like you've done a lot of work

Didn't know you had a reading list, so I'll be grabbing that reading list off you, um. Did you have any questions that you wanted to ask me um Yeah, I've asked like quite a few, and there's lots to think about. And then I have an offering at the end, um

Um, I, I guess my, is what's your hope out of this piece of work that you're doing with PGM? What's the hope of what you would do with it and what, what happens afterwards. So our hope is that we have, um, a bank of knowledge that we can use in all anti-racism work, um, that is available to lots of different people, so it will be, um, open access, uh. Uh, we will have a learning and insight report, uh, that will help organisations and people of various parts of the journey, understand some of the experiences, but some of the opportunities that come from having these types of conversations

We are gonna have a, um, a number of learning opportunities where we're calling in wider. Than people that have been shared their stories, um, organisations that are doing similar work, people that have not even started the work to really understand what is happening in co-production for racialized people, and what is the things that we need to focus on, cos I think. What we, I've heard, particularly, it's so big, people don't know where to start, and we hope to have some nice recommendations or some

Recommendations that people can start their journey, plus all of this knowledge, and actually to create more conversation as well. Um, and we see Disability Rights UK being part of that and lots of other organisations. Um, and it is fair to say, Cameron, we started off with one in 12 stories and a video at the end to talk to the experience

And then we were challenged, rightly so, that. Um, more people wanted to share their stories. So we've gone to 22

We were having a learning, an insight report, um, that came from people sharing their stories, and they'll be having these conversations to change. Um, and I think we're just at the beginning, so I'd like to give you all the answers, but I think it's gonna evolve and be quite iterative. But we see, like, the relational aspect of this work, so, as the most important part

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely, and having the conversation is really important because. Yeah, there's so many parallels, isn't there, with what we say about disabilities, don't just talk about it when it becomes an issue

Just talk about it. Because then it kind of normalises the conversation. And there's so many parallels with all of these things, isn't there, wherever, um, there's

Well, you know, yeah, so I often think it's the same idea. Um, about what we want to promote around disability inclusion and fairness and rights as it is with this space as well, so. Yeah, uh, uh, the, the bit that I often have experienced and seen and I guess I, you know, I need to get better at doing is when people feel uncomfortable in that space, particularly I've noticed where people become quite defensive

Um, Is how do you, you know, how do you manage that bit of the journey where people are personally feeling quite protective or, or not protective, but just are quite defensive about what you're telling them. That almost, they're almost kind of dismissing it to the point of saying, well, that can't be as bad as you're saying, or, well, I don't do that, or I've never seen that. That kind of that then makes it OK that what you're saying is wrong because they've never seen it before

It's how it's, it's those, and that is what happens in those spaces. You've then got to manage that somehow and yeah I think that's where that learning is important and some. Yeah, some leaders who are very good at managing that space, helping to say, well this is how we deal with that

This is a good way of managing that. Absolutely, cos I think what we've found is that people are coming with everyday experiences of racism. Um, and, and that needing to be recognised, but also when we share back, I think there is a tendency to

Push back in terms of that, or it can't possibly be like that or it is so um. Traumatic people go into kind of the, just the headspace and don't connect with feelings and emotions and so we're kind of thinking about that as we go through this project. We, um, uh, the, the positionality of the project is gonna be unapologetically what people say is what people say, but how do we tailor it to, um, make sense in various different spaces

Um, and we'll call on different people to help us with that, um. And I think there's Quite an interesting conversation I had with um. The grandchildren of some of our Holocaust survivors were saying that when you read things about the Holocaust, you can get into that place of, it's so traumatic, you, you become numb to it, and we're trying to, um, kind of work out what's the mechanism that we get people to to work past that

Um, how do you step in, step out, uh, what's right for you right now, what's right for you. what conversations that we have to contain some of that, um. And there are frustrations both with wanting to do it

As well as existing in like the real world, like how much resource do we need, how much time do we need, how do we manage a space where somebody might be, oh we can't possibly be like that, as well as somebody saying every day I'm experiencing racism. Um, it won't be perfect. It won't be always what we wish it to be, but we're trying

No, absolutely. Yeah. And that all everything you've just said kind of resonates

Absolutely, yeah. With what both how you, you, you know, I might feel personally, but how, what I've seen as well in this space. Yeah

Yeah. And then there's something about how we recognise people's contributions and how it's communicated. So lots of stuff, but we will reach out to everybody to ask them, like, what they think about

The approach and we're very open to, to, to um adapting and changing our way of being in this work. Yeah, yeah. And I think there is that element of

Also, what do we need to do to stop this happening all the time and so what's the kind of. Practical things we could do or we should be lobbying for or we should be campaigning about or. Whatever it might be, how do we change some of that? Yeah

Future generations are not having the same ongoing experiences. Again, very similar to disability. It's interesting when you shared, so, like, when you shared, like, and, and then, you know, we've kind of rubbed up along, uh, against each other quite a while now

And when you shared, like, kind of your role, and then me thinking about a sort of disability, the disability sector, I was thinking, I don't know anybody. That Is a leader in that space that isn't. A racialized group

Like, so I don't know anybody, kind of, and I was trying to think about, who else do I know that is kind of in the space that Cameron's in, that is from a relationalized background. I don't know anyone. And then

Yeah, every, every meeting I go to, I'm. Yeah, I'm the only kind of Racialized person there, uh, whether that's been the big charities or the smaller DPOs, it's largely been white, white people. Uh, so you can't really, it's hard to then have those conversations in those spaces because you're the lone voice

And people often say, oh yeah, of course, that's really important we get that. But it's, it's very different to, oh yes, I've experienced that, or, I know what that feels like because, and, and that's why it's really important that we. In a small way, within DRUK if we can bring in younger people from different communities, and eventually, hopefully there'll be future leaders

So they've had a good grounding with us and hopefully go on to amazing things, which no doubt they will, uh. And just that thing, you know, when I was growing up, yeah, I didn't really have any role models or anyone that I spoke to who said. I get it

And what I actually had was the opposite, which was My, my, my dad saying to me, you need to be that much better than everyone else. To get half the kind of way up that others wouldn't actually get up. That was the kind of thing that I had in my head

That's how it's gonna be, um. Yeah, you kind of want to change that for the next generation. Absolutely, definitely

And it's just, it's stark, isn't it like. Yeah, so I think the, the thing that I'm gonna leave with is one that you've given us so much in your experience. But what's the bit around our white peers and leaders that we need to start thinking about because

It can't be the responsibility of racialized people or people that, you know, are really wanting to do this work, how do we get people that are not even thinking about. Mm. Equity, racism, anti-oppression in the work

Lots to think about Cameron, yeah, yeah. Are you for me to stop the recording there? Yeah, yeah, sure. And then I've got a little thing that I wanted to suggest to you

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