Isaac talks to Tony About Co-Production

Please stop Yeah Um. I think where we where we'd got to before we. When I was disconnected was. That Um, Co-production is something really, I believe valuable

Mhm. Who is it valuable for, um, and I would suggest that it's valuable. Um For Maintaining these status quos that are at their racist, um, and when

I'm invited into co-production spaces, my experience. Has been wounding, painful. Othering And start to believe

That is the way it, it is. And you start to accept that. I start to accept that actually, when I'm invited, am I really being invited because I have lived and learned experience, or is it because of the colour of my skin, because of my sexuality, because of my disability? And I suspect most of the time

It's around the identity rather than wanting to hear my voice. I. Often see that tick box process go through people's head when I'm in spaces

I come across and I, I much more prefer a very direct racist, you know, someone saying you packing, you *** or something like that. Much more easier to deal with than the racist. Exists in co-production now where it's those

Beliefs and those behaviours and I suppose people call them microaggressions being spoken over that of course you would talk about um. Uh, increasing diversity because you're the only person here, um. That has any

Idea or or want or desire to have diversity, um, you know, you, you, Isaac, can cover all the diverse people in the world and speak for them. But if you speak to things that we don't like, we'll just ignore it. We will also let you contribute in a way that makes sense to us, not to you

Mhm. I've even had experiences with where my intellectual property, my thinking. Has been denied and a white person has said the same thing and it has been celebrated, saying it in a particular way, and they're much more palatable

I think it's very hard for me to. You know, before this, this opportunity to share with you, I was thinking about, oh, what will people think and I'm working. With lots of racist people and reading lots of stuff where we're told that we shouldn't shame people, we help people grow and learn, we need to be anti-racist, but

The people I'm working with and alongside. Don't want to. If you I think, you know, there's a a true sign of madness is doing the same thing and expecting, you know, a different outcome

If you really wanted to do it, you would do it. Mm. I think um

When I'm in a in space, it often feels very unsafe. It feels that I'm always carrying this idea. That at any point, I will be uninvited

And with the uninviting, it will be done in a way that will be very brutal, very silencing. Um, and I see also. White supremacy play out in bringing multiple perspectives into space of co-production

And creating the conditions where they fight. And they are opposing each other. So rather than me and somebody, uh, with a similar experience, we are having fights between black and brown people that are engineered

We are having fights around whose voice is more important because we would rather create. Discomfort and deal with our own discomfort about being racist and working in institutions that are racist, formulating our practise around. Racist ideology, um, supporting only the deliverers and the power holders to predominantly be white

Hm. And we are held back and it has a knock-on effect in terms of. Academically, You have to be

More smarter You have to do more work, and that work doesn't get recognised. You are often minimised and marginalised because you know more and people find that threatening. There is a denial that any of this has to do with colonisation and empire and, and

Historic racism that is living and breathing today. I remember, you know, when people. When, ah, oh God, there's a black man that we don't know in America that's been killed

And my response was that And all the other black men, all the other black women, all the other people that are from global majorities that are killed in this country. And that was a moment that I think people did that. And then I thought maybe there was an opportunity to have a more just world

And maybe people would step into some of the spaces I was trying to step into and. In showing co-production because I believe in co-production. Um, what I believe is in collaboration and working together for change

And What I saw in that moment is all of these people jumping onto something. And very quickly on we went from being um. The heart t

The hard to reach, but really the easy to ignore because we're not hard to reach, we're just easy to ignore. Um, I live in a place which is very diverse, but when any co-production space and opportunities is convened. There aren't black and brown people there, or if they come, they don't stay too long

And it at that time I thought there was a glimmer of hope that people would start tuning or tuning in to what needs to happen. Um, and. For me I'm married to a white man

I'm half white. I have a very diverse family. And I see How different in the real world, white people get treated, then you invert that into co-production spaces

And it mirrors, but it's more present. It's very, very present and isn't that social. There isn't the other people to call it out, and when you do call it out, you are gas lit, you are silenced and cancelled

There is a. Idea that we need to work together for mutual benefit, and that means that we don't face or deal with racism, we have to be nice and play nice, we can't offend white people because, Um You have to work past it. I always get told you have to work past it, you know

They didn't know what they were doing. Um, recently I was called passive-aggressive for raising racism. And I thought oh good well

I'm aggressive aggressive when it comes to racism, I'm not passive about being anti-racist. And then I look at the people that are doing it, I'm not saying that there aren't people doing it. And those people, particularly those white people that are doing

Um, The work on themselves and the work on their thinking. are prepared to take and do the labour, um, and it's it's. Hard, it's not easy

Um, it is really a journey that It needs intentional action, it needs intentional thinking, it needs that level of emotional intelligence. That I think a lot of people shy away from. There is, and there has to be reparations to people that have been wounded and there has to be a

Equitable approach that isn't designed and created around white centeredness. So when we talk about equity, already we're thinking about equity from a white centric perspective. Um, and I'm always trying to

Break it down but I'm tired and burnt out. No. You know, in co-production spaces

Where I am the facilitator, I'm. Often having to back things off to make those spaces work. When I bring that knowledge and learning back, there is a lack of desire

To respond from my white peers and colleagues. The challenge always gets put onto the racialized global majority people to be the solution, ones that are doing and perpetrating the racism. We're experiencing it

We're told that our brown scars or our wounds are OK as long as we don't upset people and I often think of the the um white tears that come. And that then when people recognise their racism, how they use emotion to bypass the fact that they have been racists or. Um, there is no restorative work

I need that I'm involved in where people are. Wanting to show up. Uh, I might raise something as, oh, this wasn't ideal, this was in my experience racist

I'm told that's your experience. Yeah, that is my experience and that's valid, um, and I might wait 6 months for a response um to that. But if somebody else raised a concern and they happen to be white

Uh, there'd be a very quick response. There would be. Um A level of care

That I see black and brown people not getting. And then I'm sitting in my home, reading about the experiences of black women um who are receiving maternity care, more likely to die. Hm

That's a fact. That is a proven fact. Brown women, Asian women, 2 times more likely to die than 5 times, you know, facts

In fact, when I go to the mental health um unit in in Newham. Full of black men, still being dehumanised. These are not

An anecdotal stories. These are lived experiences. I think there's a massive conflict in the, the values lots of the organisations espouse to have around co-production

Uh The the one that I always struggle with is it's OK to disagree but do it respectfully. Now how do you disagree with racism respectfully if you have been. Experiencing racism all your life

You're told how to turn up, you're told that you can't challenge, and if you challenge you have to do it in a nice way, but when the same isn't said about. The people that are perpetrating these um These microaggressions and it's not, you know, I I would love people to and I, I see them thinking it, shut the fuck up often, stop talking about diversity, Isaac, um. I, I have experienced it on so many levels

Sorry, I've probably gone off on a tangent. No, no, that was really insightful and then. I'm mindful of how you described co-production at the beginning and one of the terms you said was about sharing power, um, but what you're describing is a lack of that sharing of power, um

And, and you also spoke about how constantly being the teacher, constantly being the educator, fighting, it's really tiring. How, how long have you been working in In this space. Since 1997

long, long time. Started in. Uh, Started in kind of youth services um

You know, I, I was born of what made me was being in a special educational or a pupil referral unit where you had all sorts of people that were excluded. And doing youth work and Living in shame cause I lived in shame a lot. As a child, you know, my sexuality wasn't something that was embraced, um, not having positive role modelling around it

So there was a lot of me sitting back and being a bit of a an observer and I think now we would talk about those intersectional experiences. But it often wasn't safe because of my sexuality, often wasn't safe because of the colour of my skin. Then when I um

Became or started to have the disabilities that I do, it wasn't safe because of those. Mhm. I Started to see and notice

That There were some people that. Automatically. Had rights that

Some people didn't. And some people automatically had platform and opportunity that some people didn't. Mm

I wanted to to be different in the world. And a lot of the centering of how people wanted me to be in the world. Was from this really white perspective, or this really trauma perspective, you are the brown person that's had mental health challenges, rather than I am the teacher

Of how you work alongside people in inclusive space. I am the person that is helping you turn up in the way that you need to turn up. Which I often do, that they, they're not the things that people tapped into, what the people tapped into was all the negative stuff

And I do co-production. Everywhere and anywhere that I can. And I've done that because I believe

That I've been No, I know that I've been held back. I haven't had the same opportunities and financial opportunities as other people with less skill and knowledge. I have certainly been excluded because

I learn That And it's a family thing. That they're gonna kick us, so we, they might as well kick us when we're we're talking our truth. So talking my truth isn't something that I find easy to do

Some people have conformed to not talking their truth. That was not something that I could do. Um, and I feel co-production or, you know, sharing power is really, really important

We don't like to do that as human beings. We have egos, big egos, right, that often rooted in our own experiences of the world, that be our intellectual or our spiritual or our identity experiences. And the notion of sharing power probably doesn't come into most people's thinking, you know, like it's become a, a theory, isn't it? Let's share power

You ask people to do it, different thing. And it is simple. It's you know how you invite and create space

For people to to be alongside. Mm. I talk a lot about hosting

Uh, we We invite people and then we don't host them. We invite people and we don't keep them safe. So what kind of people are we if we're not doing that? Um, and there's a lot to be learned from global majorities communities how we

Share power. And how we think about power, it's become this thing that everyone talks about. Yeah, struggle to do

Cause if we have to share power. We have to fundamentally look at ourselves as the problem. So if we think about the sustained tax from The government in relation to lived experience, no such thing as institutional racism, there's no such thing as racism, you know, we've got politically

Brown leaders, black and brown leaders that are perpetrating racism. And you start to think, oh my God, is this um conspiracy at its best? How have we landed in a space where. And there was a big shift, you know, there's been many, many, many shifts

Um, I was very conscious that when, um, Brexit happened, that just gave licence to people to be so openly racist. I was like, are you taking the piss? Like, I can't believe. How many people? Just think it's OK to be like this or I just like this

Um, and, and I'll go back to my youth working days, being in a space where There were people that had lots of challenges and problems. Certainly, the, the majority of people there were, um, from racialized communities. It gave me a sense of safety

Around being uh being surrounded by people like me that were having similar struggles. And it gave me. Pain to realise that some of these people will never be able to get out of this because there's so many barriers they have to face, and, and that's probably why I got into co-production is because I think it

Is something that we can use. To Make a difference, um, and, you know, like, we can talk about, you know, let's have an in, you know, let's. Have a more diverse co-production, um

Facilitation facilitators. But we still hire white facilitators all the time. Why not actively say that we're only gonna hire black, you know, like, you have to really be radical

It can't be, you know, like we'll have a strategy, but our strategy will take us to having some words on a piece of paper, but we still have the same processes in place, which are inherently and at their heart, created around white supremacy. So if you have had. And I would say everybody that is from a global majority community in this country has experienced racism

And has experienced disadvantage, even if they've succeeded to minimise that gap. They're already. Second guess they're already having less opportunity

They're being you know, chosen for jobs. You know, you might have one person in the organisation that's seen as a good thing. That's not a good thing

You know, you actively need to disrupt that, um. And talking about power is probably really important, but sharing it is even more important. And we, we need teachers um and we need

Mentors and we need people that can really help us understand what that physically and practically looks like in terms of sharing power. Who is the first person to speak on the Zoom? White man all the time. Second person, a white woman, then you might get that person from a global majority background that will speak

But they're all ready because. Of their experiences thinking I need to speak in a particular way, this might not go down if you're talking about inclusion and diversity. Well, so I have to set in a white way

We whitewash our thinking, we guess like ourselves as global majority people in co-production, and then we go home and experience it, we walk down the street and experience. It's relentless, it's um. You know, you can't change

The colour of your skin, Tony. I can't change the colour of my skin. That is the first thing people see on Zoom, you wouldn't know if I'm in a wheelchair or not

There are things you can hide, you can't hide your race. Mm, I mean, I'm lucky. I'm not so black

Because let me tell you, the darker your skin is, the worse it is for you. I've seen that. I've, I the colorism, I've seen people really, really struggle with this idea

Of privileges that come even within, you know, our global majority communities, and I'm always mindful that I have had so many privileges because I am lighter. No, I can pass. I talk in a particular way, um, I Just know that I'm more palatable than

Those black men in that mental health ward, and that makes my heart. Mm. Well, What would change look like? What would? Mm Well what would moving towards look like? First of all, Doing no more harm

Mhm. When we're thinking about change, think of it from a, let's not do any harm in the attempt to create change. Let's really think about how we intentionally

As human beings really. Embody being anti-racist, and I'm gonna say anti-racism and being anti-racism isn't just about the experiences. That are written about, these are real tangible lived experiences

How calling in and how we facilitate safe spaces, brave spaces, how we. Pause our current practise and do something different. How we, and I'm lucky I've got allies around me

I've got a lot of white people that don't talk about anti-racism, but I see when I'm in a meeting and my ideas come up and be stolen, they said, oh, but Isaac just said that a minute ago, or, oh, this is what the stuff that Isaac's been doing. So I'm lucky, I'm I'm fortunate and there is. No magic bullet, you have to be prepared to do the the work

You have to be prepared to look at yourself and how you show up and turn up in these spaces. And you have to be prepared to recognise that we are all perpetrators and we all have experienced um these feelings in some way. But some people experience them much more often than other people, um

We have to acquire knowledge and we have to really understand and. Our stories are being told by white people, are being curated by white people, are being shared in white centric ways. If we don't

Control how we are seen and how we have ownership over our. Lived and learned experiences is really, really dangerous. And I don't know, I don't know, I'm still struggling to figure out how that

Is achievable for me it's been about reading, it's been about my spiritual connection, it's been about groups of people that are wanting to acquire. Knowledge to be different. It's been about not shying away

You know, we shy away from pain, but actually, you might have to embrace that pain to do something different. Um, and the idea that we create safe space and it should all be nice and everyone should leave feeling happy. I think that's something that's been created

In the absence of understanding, we're not happy, we're not safe, and we are not being looked after. So that centering of. Psychological, emotional, trauma informed practise is always for white people, but always for institutions, then we're getting it wrong

Maybe. Well, One second I'm just wondering. How are you feeling because So much of what you said resonates with my experiences of working in this space and Of being treated and seeing other people being treated like you've described and um

Yeah, I'm just wondering, and I haven't really had many opportunities or forums to give voice to those feelings. So I suppose I'm wondering how you are feeling now. I am left feeling

I could probably explain it in my stomach churning. Mm. I'm trying to embody the feeling, but

There are prevailing thoughts that are coming into my mind, so I'm feeling pain in my heart and my stomach, but the thoughts are coming into my mind. Oh wow. White people in co-production going to hear this

Creating a rod for my own back. Mm. And I Being fair And that is how

I have been conditioned to gaslight myself around the experience of racism. So I'll probably go back to the feeling of sadness, guilt. Emptiness, the physical, cos I feel the scars, I feel the scars, I feel like I'm

Walking along, being in the world. And I feel the scars. I feel more scars and

I feel scared. That It was not long ago. You know, like I, it's so funny

I often have conversations with people. It was, oh that was 300 years ago, but, you know, and I'm like. And, and that means what? Mm

Mm. As a Brown person. When and if they open the gas chambers in in Europe, which happened

In the lifetime of people that's still alive, it was the disabled people that were sent there first, it was the Jewish people, it was the brown people, it was the Roma Gypsy. And I think sometimes people use. Time to

Mitigate these are. Experiences that have been happening for hundreds and hundreds of years and we're over them, so you should be over them. No, I'm not over them

I will never be over them. I live and love where I live. But I feel like a guest, like I do in co-production

At any point I can be unfriended, unwelcomed because I don't have the power, I am other. Mm. I am seeing in the eyes of some people as less than

Um, And then I think about. Oh Lord, when you really explored that, we had to. You know, dehumanise

People to export them from their homelands because we want sugar. We wanted, we wanted cotton. We Created gas chambers because

We didn't want the the soldiers to be so traumatised, it was easier to gas people and burn them than to shoot them. That is just fact, that is historical fact, you know, we dehumanise people. And that legacy

Is certainly present in co-production for me. Yeah, I believe in its immense power to create change. Mm

But not enough people are turning up and showing up as I would expect them to. Mm. And the labour

That Global majority people. Just the fact that we are global majority people. Should mean that we have the most amount of power, but in reality, we have the least amount of power

The stories that are told about Africa, India, all of those things, you know, you can just. Poor countries, or because we've extracted their wealth. You know, probably because we've taken their knowledge

Or because we. I Violate them. And unless you can see yourself in

And your family and your, your whole existence has been part of that. And that's not just people, because people wanna do it nicely, don't they? They wanna be the good ally. And at the end of that, we're anti-racist and, or, you know, I've recently did some interviews for a big co-production world

And somebody said, I can't be racist. I've got lots of black friends on, on, on my Facebook. And I was like, Mm, you know

Are you, are you taking a piss? I'm like. Well, we all are prejudiced, we all have caused wounds, we all carry scars. The majority of people don't wanna, don't wanna go into that space of like this, you have to understand history of

Racism and their multiple histories, you have to understand how our systems and institutions that are doing co-production are built on those um legacies. Mhm. dehumanisation, you know, like, for instance, this piece of work is commissioned by the co-production collective

You only need to scratch beneath the surface to see what institution UCL and the legacy UCL has had. In relation to some of this stuff. But we wanna forget that, we wanna move past that

You cannot do this work with that when you deny people's history, when you deny people's living experiences. And the fact that you are not showing up for us. Mm

And I may never get invited back to another job. But I'm leaving my truth. Mhm

Where is that um. You've left me with lots of food for thought, um. While you're talking

There's uh there's a woman called Ali Lee who's just released a song called I Have Purpose and I have Wounds and a lot of what you were saying was just echoing and I think. It's really hard. For people like us to

Who believe so passionately in co-production to still forge a way forward when the change sometimes or the biggest change is needed is within those institutions or within the. Structures that perpetuate the status quo, so my heart goes out to you because on the one hand, We've been called upon. For our knowledge, but as you said earlier on, sometimes it's not actually that it's because we Fair particular Protected characteristic box and that's all they want us for um but when we speak truth to power, suddenly we're upset in the norm we're suddenly, um, so that takes a lot of energy to keep turning up, to keep showing up

And I beseech you, um. Not to give up because you also spoke about having some good allies, um, and sometimes those people who help us stay focused, they give us balance. Um, and without them, yeah, I suppose I certainly would have given up a long time ago

Um, you've come a long way, Isaac, you've come a long way, um. And there's still a journey ahead of you. Um

Thank you again for speaking so candidly, um, openly and. Yeah, I, I, I wonder how not only, I wonder how the audience, whoever that audience is, is gonna hear this. Will people be able to relate to it, people

Do that call to arms that that you said about actually starting work with themselves, um. Yeah, if we're gonna bring about the change we want to see. And please do not see my passion

As anger. I have passion, anger, all of it. No

To people is remember that. Well, be mindful this starts with individual journeys. Absolutely

We, if we have privilege of any sort, if we sit back and we hold back and we hold space and we ally for people, and we really, really try to. Be equitable. I think Will go a long way

Yes, and I'm gonna leave this call with silence is violence and for those that are silent, you are being violent, for those that are confused. There are people to help you be unconfused. For those that are wounded, there are people to help you heal those wounds, and for those of you that wanna do this journey

Please come, come, the, the, the table is full of love and abundance and care. Even when pain comes, will help you. That's who we are

We've had to hold our own pains whilst helping other people hold their pain. I don't um this to continue, I want this to end. Wanting that takes action

And that might be something very big for some people, something very small for other people. And the biggest thing. That I learned Was always questioned

Why am I thinking like this? What is happening in this moment? What is it about this? That is making me feel uncomfortable. When I feel uncomfortable. There's something that I haven't learned

Yeah, well. Very sound words, Isaac, um again, thank you and um. Yeah, this is, uh, onwards and upwards, you know, just journeys ahead of us

Thank you so much for holding this space. You've done it as you always do. And I'm sure we'll both be left with things that will invoke memories and experiences, but I'm glad to have shared alongside you, thank you

I want to thank you, sir. I've stopped the recording.