Hameed taks about Racism

Hi, can I get you to introduce yourself? Hi, I'm Hamid Khan, and I'm from Birmingham. And my background is British Pakistani Muslim. Thanks Hamid. Hamid, we're exploring the stories of co-production, particularly interesting hearing people from minoritized communities

What's your experience as somebody from minoritized community in relation to co-production that's working or doing co-production? Well, overall, I'm a great believer in coal production. I'm a strong advocate for coal production. I think most places and most times coal production is done with good intention, and it's inclusive wherever to whatever possibility it can be

Sadly, the true fact is that it can also be very exclusive, or it can create barriers or clearly outright be. Show in some spaces be racist, and I've experienced in some arenas and some spaces in co-production spaces, clear racism and sometimes racism is not so prevalent in your face that you can put your finger on it and say this, sometimes it's done in a very, like they say this covert racism and overt racism. Tell me about some of those experiences

So I'll give you an example of, I was involved with one co-production space, and we were working on a project together, you know, about co-production on something. And I remember that I would say something and it would get completely discredited. Like the person will look at their watch, they will tap their pen, they will say, let's park that for later

We'll come back or they will make almost discredited by that your value, your view's not that great. Exactly the same thing would be said by another member of the group in different words, and it'd be like, Well done, Jonathan. I've just made up a name that's not a real name, just made up a fancy name

Well done, Jonathan. That is an absolutely great idea. We think that would be, and that was something that made me feel very devalued

Um, I've seen other ways where people, when it came to looking at cultural sensitivity or looking at inclusiveness of other minority groups, people have suddenly said, oh, it's not about the equality on race, it's about diversity. What about the working class white people? What about the working class, you know, and it's almost like I'm not saying that those communities don't need to be. Uh, supported and but I'm here focusing on those who are very, very clearly disadvantaged and are not represented, and yet something else will come in

And then I've said, well, you know, for example, we need to take into mind into account in this particular. A project around cultural sensitivity and culture. Well, it's not just culture for black and Asian people, even there's a football culture and working class white community may have a football culture and it's almost like taking you off the track of what you're saying

And that, that was very, very something that would dishearten me. Um, I've had in a space where I know clearly I'm just there because for the sake of their tick boxes, but they're not interested in what I've got to say. And every time I've spoken, it's almost like just hang on there, Ham, we, we'll come back to you

Just wait for your turn and it's like, well, I've been waiting for 67 minutes now and I've had my hand up before the two other people you've spoken before me and that kind of stuff, you know, and um sometimes you could be saying to me with a critical eye, how do you know it's racism? And how I know it? Well, first of all, racism is like heat in the kitchen. You have to feel it to know it. And if you don't feel it, sometimes it's very hard for you to understand it

And I say to people, racism sometimes cannot be structurally explained or clearly defined. It has to be felt. It has to be felt

It has to be that you have to get into that zone of somebody who's going through it to understand it, and usually it's the derogative comments. Is that I remember once we were talking in coal production about developing a a mental health service for people from for all walks of life, and I said, what about, oh we need to think about interpreting, and one member of the group said, this is a bit going backwards about 20 years old story, I don't think they would get away with it now, but they said. Something like this

Oh well, if I was in India, they wouldn't get an interpreter for me to translate for me in English. So why is it so important in this country? In another co-production meeting, I clearly remember by the end of it, I went on a long journey to a different city. And um so I won't mention the city just for confidentiality, but I drove back 2 hours to another city and I was there for a whole day in a coal production meeting

And I remember saying to the the the organiser was very sweet and very kind, and I said to the organiser, I've been fasting all day, and is it all right if I take some food with me because there's plenty of food left. And I thought I'll have, as I'll be on the motor when it's time to eat up on my fast. And there was another member in the group who was quite a um

Influential person in a in a management role, and as I was picking my uh bag up and um the food bag on uh he the person he said to me, Is that for your family at home? Have you got people at home hungry, and it was almost said in a way that you would speak to somebody who is 60 years ago who they used to refer to as people coming off the boat or asylum seekers who are hungry, but it's it's done in that derogative manner. And I turned around and I said to him, well, actually I don't have a family, this is me and my mom and my mom has a special diet. This is for me because I'm fasting and I've not had lunch

You know, and, you know, it's like he noticed that I've taken the food, but he hadn't noticed that I hadn't eaten at lunchtime. You know, and if he was kind, whereas the other person, even though they didn't say to me, Oh, take the food because you're fasting, you know, to eat on the way. But when I mentioned it, they were very warm and said, oh please help yourself

There's plenty of food there, you know, it's going to go to waste, take it. But this person was more focused on the bag that I picked up with food, but I had not noticed I hadn't eaten while he indulged in a whole full plate of food. I mean, you talked about

Like a historical one, but earlier when we had our uh briefing conversation, you talked about this is most of your experience, this is happening every day when you're in co-production spaces. How does that make you feel? I, I think that I would be fair and not say that it happens every day, however, it happens most places. Something you pick up somewhere, you know, and

It's not always the facilitators who organise the coal production, sometimes it could be participants. Because not all participants come with the same attitude. Sometimes it could be in coal production, you work in organisations in that organisational culture is quite institutionally racist, and that gets played out in the, you can feel it in the meeting

And one particular project I was involved with, I had said it 10 times to them, please avoid having meetings on a Friday afternoon because Friday prayers for the Muslim community on purpose they would always have it on a Friday, last Friday of the month. And they always used to have some excuse that oh we couldn't get a room, oh so and so doesn't work on a Friday, oh so and so said they've got issues with childcare on other, so it was almost like every other issue is more important than the fact that you need to go to Friday prayers, and that meant that I had to make a sacrifice by not going to Friday prayers and be at these meetings, otherwise I would have missed out and I would have to wait another month and still be on another Friday. So small things like that

And what? You said that this happens quite often. When you're in those spaces, how do people react and respond when. Um, members or facilitators express things that are harmful or racist

Yeah, I think Isaac, I want to just again just emphasise because I don't want people to think that coal production is full of racist people or racism. I think me and you both know that there's a lot of good practise and good people in coal production, and they are very, very strong anti-racist allies in coal production. And what I've done is give you a recollection of all the bad practises or bad attitudes that I've seen in co-production of racism

And kind of cluster them together because I think it's really important that people don't walk away thinking that all coproduction spaces are racist. I don't say that, but what I'm here to say is where it does take place, we have to raise awareness, nip it in the bud, and support people who may not know what they're doing is racist. Sometimes people don't know what they're doing is racist, and that's what our job is to say, actually, that is racist

You know, and that is racist. So I've had one person, you know, I remember men, you know, in this day and age, said, oh, if you eat halal, can you not bring your own packed lunch, you know, something like that, you know. Uh, but not like, oh, we can cater for halal or on the alternative by saying don't worry, why don't you get yourself halal lunch and we'll recompensate you back

It was almost like bring it from home or eat what we got on the table or things like I made it very clear to people in the first meeting. tell this another incident of another meeting where I told the of the incident to this facilitators that by the way, they bought the lunch in, but they got the halal chicken and halal beef the food on the same tray as the ham because it was a meat platter. And she said, Oh, we've got halal, that's halal and said you can't have, can you please ask them to put halal in a different tray and not with the ham and, you know, and Even when I went to the next meeting, it was the same caterers they ordered from and had done the same thing, 2nd time and 3rd time

There was no more than 3 meetings, I don't know if it would have happened 4 times, but it happened in 3 consecutive times that I was part of this meeting. Yeah. I I want to go back a bit, so clearly not all spaces, but lots of spaces may have behaviours that you might challenge

You talked about tick box being in spaces to be a tick box. What did that mean? Like, explain that to me. I I really want to understand

I think, I, I think that, you know, what I would like to say very strongly that we are in 2023, and I've given you examples from 2005 to up to date 2023. So some things I may say and people think, you know, may say, oh well that's a bit outdated. Yes, I'm not denying that, but sadly the whole of the United Kingdom has not progressed all at the same time

There are still spaces in the United Kingdom, particularly in England. There are, there's a variance of how things are done in certain organisations. There's organisations which are very progressive, and there's some still organisations that are 20 years behind

So what I would like to say to you is that I remember one particular day I had to show as part of um um putting this proposal together, this tender to get this funding for a project um uh to design a mental health service, they needed to show diversity. And I wasn't selected because I was skilled. I was I had knowledge

I could make a big massive contribution. It was more about that, oh, in our documents and consultation and our tenders we can show we have a Pakistani male Muslim from an inner city working class background. He ticks all those boxes, tick tick tick tick

But when I was in those meetings, the senior management just spoke between themselves and Really didn't make me feel part of the team, and it was almost like you just be a puppet, enjoy the free biscuits and lunch and have a cup of tea, and aren't you so lucky that we're giving you a 20 pounds, uh, thank you, uh, what they call it, uh, remuneration award, um, and you just be grateful with that, even though we are all here on an 800 to 90,000 pounds salaries and our daily rate is probably works at about 500, 600 pounds a day. Um, but for you, you just be happy on the fact that we're giving you a 20 pounds remuneration and a free lunch, and you just nod your head like a nodding dog, so we can say that we had somebody who, who agreed with what our proposal is. And how does that affect you? And how does that affect the way you are? I think, you know, I didn't become who I became today because you know me from a long distance of the last 6 or 7 years on different various platforms and forums, but I think you got to know me very well in the last 2 years because of the work we've done through different forums and platforms

That my confidence, my articulation, my level of speaking very openly has come with going through a lot of bad experiences. And sadly I wouldn't want to. I wish I hadn't gone through those experiences, but it's taken out the shyness for me

It's taken out the, the, the, the, the hesitancy of, I better not say that because it might upset someone, I better not say that, oh, that people pleasing, because I was a very big people pleaser to a person who's now confidently says things as they are, speaks very openly, and challenges in a healthy way, challenges bad practises. And tell me about You know, you mention this word, anti-racism. How, what can we do to ensure co-production is more anti-racist, you know, like you said it wasn't all bad, but what, where, how can we make sure organisations are paying attention to the needs of minoritized communities? I think that I'm, it's very sad that we, we have to have something really bad happen for us to get attention back on the anti-racist agenda, like, you know, uh, the case of Chris Carver and George Floyd in um in the USA and many more like uh Lawrence, Stephen Lawrence and all the, you know, things that happened and then suddenly, oh, we need to think about

Anti-racism, but I am proud and I'm very pleased. I have seen some very, very proactive organisations that really kind of Gone through their policies and procedures and their systems and their staff and said we want to create an anti-racist organisation and we're going to become a world class anti-racist organisation. So I think we need to think about how can we develop guidelines

This is something that's just come in mind. I'm thinking out loud, it just come in my mind, whether we should create a little co-production forum and we can develop guidelines on how to. How to have an anti-racist coal production spaces

Because we've done great guidelines on how to user involvement, coal production, um, uh, patient and public involvement and engagement guidelines, but we haven't actually got a clear set of protocol guidelines, A for a couple of pages, clear key points that say this is how you demonstrate that you're an anti-racist coal production space. Because I don't think that people are racist always very clear with with intention. I think there's a lot of racism that takes place unintentionally because if you look at historically from only 1967 that we've, is it 1967 or 1

5, I might be wrong, but it was only in the, since the mid-60s that we've had actually the Race Relations Act. So before that, you could be openly dis people could be racist to you and without any legal law as a deterrent. So when my father came to this country, it was very clear where it would say on windows, no dogs, no blacks, no Irish, and my father remembers that he, he came into the country, he was knocking a few doors and saying, can I rent a room? And there were rooms to be rented

And the person will say, I don't have and look at the language, the language tells you something here. They will say to him, sorry. I don't hate packies, but my neighbour will get upset if I have packies as my uh lodgers

And you had, you could not challenge that. You could not say no, but why? What's wrong with me? You just had to smile and walk off and knock the next door or look for another room in another house. And that's how clearly the race my dad remembers till this day, going to public spaces and they would just look at you and say you can't come in, not because you've done anything wrong, just because of your colour

They would be like uh the example my dad gives was the picture houses, they used to call them the cinemas, and once every few months they would go to the cinema and my dad said we just get refused just because we, you know, in those days that was their day off and they would make a big deal out of it. The suit and tie it was like a big thing for my father's generation as young men. And he said we were very dressed smart, more than the white community, really polished, well conducting ourselves, and they would just say to us, you can't come in, and it's only because of our colour

That thread of history and how history is really important, I wanted to bring us back to. Um, and if it's OK to co-production, and you said, and yes, we've known each other and you, your confidence has grown. Are there spaces that you still feel? Um, it's challenging or unsafe to raise

Um, when people are being intentionally or unintentionally racist. Yes, they are. And it all depends, but I went to Cornwall for a meeting and I couldn't believe it, the, the outright racism that I saw and very clearly, you know, I've also seen something very similar in Plymouth

I saw something very similar that I had experienced in, and I was shocked that, you know, in this day and age that it still happens, but if you go up to Middlesbrough and you know, those kind of places really at uh in the north, and then I also, even though it's not in the England but in Belfast, cos Belfast not very long ago that they had. between Catholic and Protestants and there's still tension just between those communities, never mind another colour, another race, and you know that's just the same race but different religion. Well, not in a different religion, different denominational religion, Catholic and Church of England, and you know, in Belfast I had experienced a very clear Abusive racism when I was walking through a street to get to my venue where I was staying the night

So we're focused a lot on the production spaces, but clearly. These experiences are in everyday world, plus game production spaces. Tell me about online cos how do you deal with the online world and the subtle side of kind of some of the stuff that you've spoken about? I think online it's a bit more difficult, difficult, it's a different type of racism that's something you could see, like, for example, it might be that when you speak, people are not paying attention or you get people cutting you in, or people just say that's not a relevant point, we're running out of time, or we just need to move forward or that, you know, or that's not, that's not a relevant point for this meeting, that kind of thing

But also I think, you know, what I'm saying is not something that is. Uncommon, I mean, you know, I won't mention the name of the organisation, but an an organisation has done some really tense research and found that even professional staff are facing racism in the workplace, from their colleagues, their management, and from their service users, you know, I'm talking about NHS like patients in this scenario. So racism isn't just like for people who are

Underrepresented or people who are not educated or people who might be services or carers or patients, people can be at high senior positions and still face racism, and those people may feel very uncomfortable when they're right in senior positions in co-production with senior people, and yet they're a senior position themselves, but they could be facing racism. And I think that's something that I need to emphasise that racism for victims are not just people who are uneducated or not articulate or vulnerable in society. You could be in a in a very influential position and still face outright racism

Hm. So co-production often people will say it's built on some called principles or values, so a mutual benefit, for instance, um diversity. Um, inclusion, all of those kind of things

How does that fit with these experiences, like it feels like these experiences don't. I, I think that, you know, Isaac, one thing we need to be very clear of. That not everybody's at the part of understanding what coal production is

We've been doing this for a long time, and only recently we've kind of. Kind of crack the nut that oh this is what it should be and this is how it should be, not that it is. So we still haven't got to the stage how it is, we're still at how it should be, we're still discussing that in spaces

And for some people, it is a very new concept, they're very alienated to the idea of what coal production. I've had people say to me and I've turned up and said coal production is something like oh is that producing a film, is it something to do with filming. Uh, and television, it's something to do with drama

I'm like, no, coal production means where you involve people of all from, you know, to co-produce a piece of work or an activity or a policy, which means, for example, I would say like if you're doing a mental health service designer, you might involve patients or services who are going to use that service to look at how, what kind of service to design. So coal production is not understood, it's not like, you know, it's not like. Like Equality Act 2010 is very clear, and people can pick it up and say, right, this is what the Equality Act is

Coal production, even today, people have different interpretations of it. If you get 6 people in a room, they all have a different interpretation of what coal production means. OK, right, so let's go with that 6 people in the room

So what do the spaces of rooms that you go to typically look like? Do, are they spaces that are diverse? Are they spaces? No, I think predominantly when I go to spaces, I find they tend to be very white, very middle class, very much people who are semi-retired or retired, who have been in goods senior positions, or, or people who are not even been in a senior position but are from a white background. Usually you find where coal production is heavily. Black and Asian when it's to do with a black service or it's to do with an Asian, so if they're developing say a black African Caribbean service, then they'll have like 20 black people in the room

But we don't, you know, we, we are not just experts in our culture, or we may have other expertise in other areas, but then, like when I worked in an organisation and this is co-production related, is that I would, I, I was more skilled and more competent and qualified than my some of my white counterpart colleagues, but when it came to. The actual expertise of what my job was. Nobody was consulting with me

I sat around the table and they weren't interested. When it came to equality, diversity type of related issues, they would look at me and say, Well, how, what do you think how we could do this for the Asian community? How do you think we could do this for the African Caribbean community? How do you think we could do this for the black Asian minority? And I'd be like, I am a British Pakistani, I am not the whole. Continent South, you know, Asia

I'm not the global citizen of Black Caribbean, African community and the South Asia. So how come suddenly I'm an expert in all these cultures when I'm only not even an expert in Pakistani culture but expert in a small region of Pakistan where my culture comes from, you know. Does that means it's like somebody I can speak for a small part of Birmingham where I live, but it's like you inviting me and saying, can you speak for the whole of the United Kingdom

I don't know what life's like in Cornwall. I don't know what life is like in Devon. I don't know how people feel in Newcastle

It's that kind of feeling. You think I am Asian, but I'm not something an expert in all Asian cultures. Yeah

So clearly I misunderstood. I thought you was an expert in everything. Um, so what do you hope for the future in terms of a more inclusive, more

Um, Safe environment around co-production. I think that we are progressing, but we cannot relax and say, oh, we've got to become even extra, we've got to rev up the engines even more faster, and really go out there and we need to strongly form allies, cos a lot of good practises out there in coal production, there are a lot of amazing inclusive spaces and like I said in the beginning, they're not. Not all racism is done on purpose or deliberately, sometimes the unintentionally, sometimes it's in the policy and it's how it's played out

Like I'll give you an example of the Friday afternoon meetings. Uh, I, I've been to a coal production meeting where they had a predominantly Jewish community come to this meeting. It was in Manchester and they didn't think about that they eat kosher meat and that their diet is, they don't have food on the plate that's touched non-kosher meat before, even though it's been washed 20 times, and they expect these people to be hungry and all they had to do was look for a local

A kosher provider, the caterer and get the food in, or the carang those individuals and said, we understand you're from the Jewish community kosher food. However, we can't get kosher caterers. Can you buy your own lunch and please bring it in with a receipt and we'll reimburse you on the day? It's not that difficult

It's rock, it's not rocket science. It's better than having people hungry to offer them that choice. And that was in a co-production space in Manchester where there's a high predominantly Jewish community

So sometimes, you know, I just think common sense is not so common, and people don't always do things on purpose to be deliberately racist or any kind of discrimination. Sometimes it's the fact that. Common sense is not so common and they don't think

Uh, with common sense, or sometimes people are thinking about the average majority and they forget the minorities with different additional needs or requirements or. Um, you know, cultural needs, religious needs, language needs, and disability needs and all that. So I think what we need to do is think about creating a character, and I always said this to someone, because this one person taught me this, it's not my clever brain, but one person really taught me this and said, Hamid, whenever you do work where you want inclusivity, think of creating a character in your head that's got every, A different type of barrier that you could think of, they're disabled, they got, they're blind, they've got hearing impairment, they use a wheelchair, they're gay, they are religious, they are a female or a male, depending on what genders you're looking at, they are

They have language barriers and then think about how can you create, how can you meet all those needs of these individuals, of this character, and he said most likely when you get people coming forward, you already have thought about different additional needs that some of those people may have. And I thought, what a wonderful way of thinking, because normally we think of the average. We think, oh, OK, we need a venue, we're gonna get 30 people and then suddenly requests start coming in, oh, I need a hearing impair, I need a sign language

Oh, I need wheelchair access, uh, space, oh, I need someone who can provide halal food. Oh, I, and then we start thinking of all that, and then we get our heads really clogged up because we have short space of time to get all those needs met. But if we start to create an environment and book spaces and create events and create cooperation spaces for that particular character that faces

And all the kind of Discriminations or barriers we could think of, then we will create inclusive coal production spaces. Yeah. Can I ask you about, so you talked a lot about er cultural competency I believe um we would say you've talked a lot about that

So I wonder about facilitation, so how many of the spaces that you go to um have people that look like you in in them as facilitators? Um, I think, um, people do look like me. But very far and few. I sometimes go when it's like me and maybe if I'm lucky, there might be one other person of my colour, not because of my culture or my religion

It just might be the fact that I'm from Pakistan and they happen to be from India. And if I'm lucky, sometimes I go to space, I'm the only person that's supposed to be representing every other. Minority groups that you could think of, and I think that we need to think about, and I would say to people this I want to finish on this point also is that before we move on to the next point, is that what people don't realise that not all minor people from black from ethnic minority background are underrepresented because they're not able to

Speak the language or they're not educated or they're deprived and they're they're vulnerable or they're hard to reach. We have a lot of black, Asian minority ethnic communities with influential, articulate, highly educated people, and yet they're not coming around the table. That's where we need to think about how can we make it

That's why I call it non-traditionally engaged groups because I think like my mom is very marginalised. She is from the underrepresented, she doesn't speak the language, she's got a disability, she's um a female, she's Pakistani, she faces all these underrepresentations. But my siblings are all highly educated university graduate levels in jobs

But they don't want to come to these sort of spaces, and I always question why, and they're like always boring, why can you do this? So we've got to think about how can we come across to the wider community that coal production is interesting, it's worthwhile, it's valuable. It's a long-term, has an impact on making a difference, because most people say well what's the difference it's gonna make, nothing's gonna change. We've got to change that, we've got to show people your involvement is important and there is an impact of that by showing them the difference it makes

So you, you've talked a lot about your role within co-production, and the question I was trying to pose, and maybe I didn't do it so well, is that people that are convening co-production and setting up these spaces and groups, the facilitators, the um people that are doing social care, the people that are doing research, are they from, um, you know, minoritized communities, like how is that? Playing out in this space. I mean, sometimes, I mean sometimes you do get people from archized groups who are in jobs to do coal production, but very far and few or sometimes you find that they tend to be more in coal production spaces where it's very specific to do with a certain culture. So if they're looking at setting up about female from South Asian community, then you'll find a few people who are facilitators from that community that happen to have jobs in that role

But most times it's not always the case. And sometimes, even if you are from that community, but if the organisational policies are very institutionalised and there's racism in the policies, it's very hard for you to challenge a whole system. If rather than you challenge the system, you become part of that system, it's almost like you're kind of without even realising, demonstrating racist practises without even knowing because that's how they always done things in that organisation or in that co-production space

Mm. So thinking about the systems of co-production. Are are you saying that some of these systems are structurally racist or? Yes, and we can't, uh, that's not my words

That's clearly been shown through many, many research projects, even through the Equalities, uh, Rights Commission. I think they used to call the Equality Human Rights Commission. And before that, the race relation, um, what was it called, the Equality Commission and all those different organisations we've had over the years, and even till today we know that that's not me saying it, that is very clear

That's why they developed after Chris Carver and George Floyd, that they created a race equality impact assessments and, you know, not policy, um, a framework on how to become an anti-racist organisations. And, and. What do you say to those people that Because there are people in the world that disagree that systems are structurally racist or

I just say it must be quite comforting for you to think that either you're not, you don't, you're not, you're not experienced it because you're probably from the supremacy, you know, the white supremacy type of privileged background, because we know research shows that if you happen to be white and you happen to be um from middle class background, you're in a very different position to somebody who's black from inner city working class poverty background. So that's why also I think people find comfort in denying that. I mean, my dad for many years, many years would say I've never faced racism

You know, he didn't really understand the concept because he always thought I must keep my head down, I must be really appreciative of the fact that I've been let into this country and I can earn it pounds and I can go and work in a factory. And I should be grateful. And we grew up in saying, look, it's their country, you know, it's OK when they get on the bus if they give you actually let them have the seat

It's OK, you know, if somebody pushes you in your dinner queue at school because it is their country. It's only when we grew up and we went to college and university, we started to talk to our dad and he then started. Open up and realise that how much racism he has faced very openly in his face, but I think he found comfort in feeling, oh, it doesn't exist

It was almost a way of surviving the trauma of racism by denying the fact that he'd been through racism. So he would have put it down to the fact that, oh, they didn't like me. Not because I'm Pakistani, not because I'm Asian, not because I'm Muslim

They just didn't like me as a person or that person just had an attitude on that day, or that person maybe, you know, he would, he found comfort in making excuses, but when we grew up and we started to talk about it and we weren't going to put up with, when I say we, my, my siblings and me, we weren't going to put up with the racism our parents put up with. He started to to realise how much racism he had gone through in his. Coming to this country prior to the Race Relations Act 1967 to to up to, you know, recently when he, I think the first time we had this conversation, our dad was in 1996, so from 36 to 196, he had talked about all the racism that he had gone through, but it was more for him to think he didn't go through racism

Mm. It was always more a way of blocking the trauma. Yeah, really profound that feeling and sense that this intergenerational

So I just want to, to call out something because I think it's important that we call this out in this space. You, you said it's really important that when as a person from a minoritized community, when talking about racism. That you talk about it in a particular way, why is it important to talk about it in the way that you've spoken about it, cos I know you're really passionate about

Not blaming and not shaming and. I, I'm, I'm not, um, sorry, I, I'm not afraid to. Shame in a very positive way, not in a way it's like I'm shaming you because you're bad and you're terrible and it's awful, more like I'm shaming you in a way to help you and support you to think about how you can, you know, get rid of these stereotypes or get rid of this racist attitude because you might not even realise that what you're doing is racist

So in that sense I'm not afraid. Um, sometimes I'm not blaming the individuals, sometimes people get caught up in the system of racist. or the culture of the organisation of racism or and it's about raising awareness to say actually you're in a good position because you work in that organisation, you're part of that culture to say hang on a second, this is actually disadvantaging certain communities because it's actually

Showing it's actually a way of being racist because this puts this this community under um in a, in a, in a, in a disadvantaged position, and that's what I want to do. I want to create, I want to have to be able to be vocal to support people to look at how it's about what's the right word. I want to change people's hearts and minds to become anti-racist, that's the right word

What's your own journey with um racism being like in terms of. You know, your own learning and your own experiences. Um, what's been my experience of racism? I think, sorry

Sorry, please repeat the question. Yeah, I lost you, the, the internet cut a little bit. What's your own journey around learning about anti-racism being like? What's been my journey been like with racism? I think it all depends on which area you're talking about, you know, I came in this country in the 80s, 84, and at that time it was very clearly, you know, we were told not to go to certain areas and if you went there, you saw the skinheads, uh very clear, you know, outright racism in your face

And then I saw racism, where law was weak, like it was there but really wasn't really taken seriously and people were racist in the workplace. I remember one manager saying to me, Oh, you know, tough, you can't have a lunch. I said to him, Well, is it possible? instead of giving me a lunch break between 12 and 1, can I have my lunch between 1 and 2 so I can run to the mosque and do my Friday prayers? And he said, no

You know, work is work, and um that is a shift that you're on and if I did that for every person, and you know it was that kind of straight attitude, racist, you know, he said, I be religious in your own home but not in the workplace. Whereas now it's great, the world isn't like that, you know, you can now have your religious needs met and people will accommodate your religious needs. So I remember to that level, you know, racism in my face on the grounds of religion or, or I had one person who say to me things like, oh, your food really smells

Oh, it stinks. It didn't stink. It was spices and you know, it was a food that people go out to eat Indian takeaways

They love the Indian takeaways in the restaurant, but they had an issue. This individual. Had an issue with my food in the workplace, but the other chapter was bring a fish and chips in and smelling the space out of fish and chips

Um, and, you know, somebody would open a pack of crisps like smoky bacon. That smell didn't bother him. But as soon as I would have a samosa, nothing even too codified, suddenly it was a big issue, you know, it was a big issue

So what I was asking me to. And you've given me so much, and you made me smile when things about the fish and chips. Um, and I could smell the vinegar and I could smell the coffee and all of those things I love

Uh, this is a really serious subject, right? So, I'm trying to explore with you what's your own learning journey been like around anti-racism, because a lot of people may never have come across the word anti-racist or even started to learn about this stuff. What's been my experience around anti-racist? Your learning journey. So like, you know, you, you've used lots of words like anti-racist and you Yeah, I think that I've been fortunate that I've been working in forums and arenas where we talk about equalities, we talk about discrimination

We are there to create inclusive space that we are a voice for the voiceless. That's why my learning journey's been quite positive that I've had an opportunity to learn. And don't get me wrong, I had a lot of stereotypes

I've had a lot of, um, you know, biases, conscious biases, but I'm very fortunate that I've been challenged or I've challenged myself, and over the years I have changed and I've become a better person, more inclusive, but sadly not everybody gets that opportunity. To really, some people get more comfort in believing what's not, what's full of nonsense, because that's what they've been told and that's what they believe, you know, and um. But my learning journey has been quite lucky that I've worked in organisations

I've worked in jobs and I've worked in spaces, and I've been an advocate. I've done volunteering and I've done campaigning. I've been an activist all my life looking at challenging all types of discrimination, not just racism

Have you got any final food, uh, final words or final thoughts that you wanted to um share with me? Yeah, my final words would be that, you know. Coal production is cool. Coal production is meaningful

Coal production is a way forward. However, don't be shy to challenge racism in coal production spaces to make it inclusive and make it meaningful and have it that it's coal production is for everyone. We've got to make it inclusive by challenging racism and any other forms of discrimination, not just racism, but because this today we're talking about race and we're emphasising on challenging racism, but I would say any kind of discrimination that oppresses people is not acceptable in coal production environments

Thanks. I haven't got any questions for you. Do you have any for me? I think it's been great that we've had an opportunity to reflect and talk and a space to think, and um I hope that people will see our recording when they watch this from a positive point of view that we're not criticising with progressing and we won't be seeing this as a progressive discussion around how we can make it

Anti-racist coal production environments. Thanks mate. Absolutely

I'm gonna stop the recording there if that's OK..