Elkin talks about racism

Can I get you to introduce yourself? Hi, my name's Elkin Atwell. I'm a Digital media, artists, um focusing on 3D printing installation work. I live in London and I've exhibited um in London and overseas. Oh brilliant, thank you for sharing a bit about you

So we're exploring this idea of co-production. And how people experiencing it from um racialized backgrounds. So what's your experience been of co-production? Um, It's been a mixture of different emotions, really, you know, talking from an emotional viewpoint

Um, sometimes it's been very good it's been a very good experience. Other times it's been dismal. Yeah, um, when it's good, it's very good and it works very well, and I think that comes down to, um, People who are generally open-minded, well trained and professional

And we have some um. Indicative drive to make the project work, you know, um, where it's been a failure is normally due to lack of experience, um, ego, maladministration. Um, non noncompliance with, um, their own, um, mission statements or just lack of knowledge and experience and also, you know, you have the elements of um

Race that comes into it and. What I would probably call um microaggressions. If that makes sense

Yeah. Tell me about the impact of microaggressions that the impact of microaggressions are very subtle and very um. Deep, you know, because

It defines whether a project succeeds or not and also it kind of like. Undermines the whole project values that you're trying to um. Facilitate, you know, it could, it could be something very subtle, you know, and

When you're in a busy environment, you ignore it, but when you look back on it in reflection, you can see, you can see what's going on and. Sometimes it's very intentional. Normally, and sometimes it's not intentional, you can see it's not intentional the staff aren't um aware of

What they're doing and it becomes custom and culture almost. It's that thing about um institutional racism almost coming over. Yeah

So would you say your experience has been, I know you talked about the positives, so have your experiences been? Like, so this idea that people experience racism in co-production, like what has your experience been like? Uh, It's been like, where do I start? Um. It's been to the case where people have, you've been asked to supply information, and you've done a good um report or whatever, and you know, you, you, you've done the best that you can and. People who have no experience come and say no you can't have that and know people who have no experience doesn't mean they're um

More knowledgeable than you, just that they may have a high position than you and they undermine and cut down what you've said and what you've stated and your project proposal, turning it into nothing, a nothing project, they can't see the implications or the impacts further down the road of the project you're doing, you know, or what you're trying to create, you know, up to a point where um. The grant facilitators look at the project and they just turn it down because the project all of a sudden has no value and no um. Purpose really in the criteria of the grant that you applicate you, you're you're applying for, you know, another example is um

People not well. Recently I was on a project for the summer um teaching young children and. None of the materials I had requested

I made the biggest of materials. None of the materials I requested were received. Nothing

You know, and I turned up and I did it and I had to supplied my own materials and everything else and you know 11 of the things there was. Every week, it was for 5 week project every week, they made promises that these materials would be supplied and they weren't. And it was more efficient for me to go and buy it myself

Or equipment and and you know, I don't know how that works, you know, but um. Put it this way, I won't be working with them again, and it's a sad loss for the community because I, because I did offer my skills and my experience to them, um. And I didn't seem to realise what was, what I was offering them, you know, I think they do now, but you know, it's just sad that, you know, when I whilst whilst this thing was in progress that they didn't um

Embrace and take on board that what we're getting was a unique opportunity. Yeah. How much of that do you think relates to You've been a black man

Uh, I'd say about 85 to 95% of it and. It's not only about being a black man, I think it's about being a male. And being of the age that I that I am

I have the experience I have. That's what I think it is, yeah. It's, it's not just about being black, it's about the age that I am, I'm, I'm a mature black man, you know, and I'm an experienced black man, you know, I'm not, and I don't take very kind to be treated like a child, so yeah

I mean, I, I, I, yeah, I can't imagine anybody treating you like a child, um, and that just. You know, but neither can I, neither can I. But you know, once you're aware of it, you can see it and that's um

You know, no one wants to be treated like a no mark, do they? And, and in terms of like the co-production and the facilitation and all the stuff that you do, to ensure that, like do you feel like you're heard. In the same way as your white counterparts, do you feel that you're experiencing Uh, you know, like, how do you experience the world in these facilities. I'm in a very unique field

And My white counterparts aren't and. I find that. My white counterparts seem to be more embraced and

Appear to be given more information that they can look into for their own projects and myself and they're very um. What's the word gralicious, is that the word grabilicious? I don't know, but they're very tight-fisted about sharing information with me. Like the word grabbing is just, so do you think that

Yeah, yeah, there's a big competition cos it's a very small um area. It's, it's, it's, it's a very niche market, so to speak, and um grants that come up and funding that comes up for arts, yeah, generally speaking, are. Not very much

There's not very much out there, and it seems to be a race to get yourself in there and da da da da do do the job or whatever, yeah, or do the work, should I say, yeah, and. Within those specialisms there seem to be artists who. Seem to make a living from it

Very well, and those who don't seem to make a living from it very well. And I don't seem to make a living from it very well, but, you know, um, again, it's a very niche market that I am in a niche area, so I should say that I am in. And also it's, it's, um, access to resources, some of, you know, my white counterparts have been there for maybe a bit longer, and they've got more um reach and more networks to um

ploughing, you know, but. They're not obviously they're not sharing it with me and they're very um. Posted about what they do share with me in case they say too much

You know, And it doesn't mean that you know everything they showed me I'm gonna jump on and run on run run to it and you know, because that's a very niche niche area for what I'm doing, you know, so it doesn't mean that but it's just the lack of sharing, the lack of information. And a lack of um I'd say participatory um. Networking or working together on projects, you can easily work together on projects

You know, many projects I can work together with, but it doesn't seem to seem to be a lot of um. It is better for where, uh, protectionism going on. And what in your view is the reason for that protectionism? Sorry, can you repeat a bit low the volume, what in your view is the reason for that protectionism? Um, Well, it's the same old, innit, so no, it's um, money and racism

I feel. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I think it's the funding aspect and the racing comes into it on that level

How does it make you feel? Uh. It's happened so much that I'm, I've turned cold to it. I mean it inside it's very um

It can be very debilitating and depressing cause it, cause you, you feel what's the point if you continuing and why, why should I actually bother with um. These projects and these ideas that I have, you know, and it makes me feel like, oh, you know, if you, you, you go to one place and you apply, you don't hear anything back from them, and you know, you, no one's kind of like basically sharing information with you or. Telling you may maybe you should apply for this one because this one's more suited for you, or maybe you should do a collaboration with this person or that person, you know

Um, and it makes you feel kind of like a bit um. Well, well, it obviously it makes you disappointed. You feel very, very disappointed

You know, it's like, it's like, you know, you you you you're going to a friend's birthday party, they've got loads of lollipops and your child and you turn up there and the lollipops are all gone, and you feel like what's going on here? You know, kind of like, yeah, really y. And this thing that really struck me was. You said not being like, so the impact of this is really far reaching, so it's about how you make a living, how you

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well it it affects you because you know you, you, you, you, um. That's how you make a living, not obviously, obviously you try to do arts as a profession, you have to make a living from it and it affects everything, you know, from the way you live, the, the, um

The outreach that you have, you know, to your socialising your your your socialising abilities, you know. Um, You know, to even your, even being able to go out and travel, you know, cos obviously you know you have to find to travel throughout certain places and where, where in London. And it's despite what some people think it is a very big city from one side to another

It's a massive city, you know, and it's expensive to travel, you know, even a one way trip, and you know people have views which are important to go to you go to your partner's views or whatever, or, or you go to see potential, um, clients, and it takes it out of you, you know, and. That's the effort in itself cos you have to gee yourself up to go and do that. It's not, um, just walking or or um cavalier and say that you have to prepare things, you know, and that's another um aspect that, you know, you, you, um

Have to deal with and it's not like um. You just pick up a paintbrush or if it's not all us to paint this, we know that, but it's just that the ability to um. Speak to like-minded people is severely restricted

Yeah. How much safety and cultural safety do you think there is in in the arts and facilitation and co-production space? Um. There is some I'd say For black and ethnic minorities

You know, the spaces that are available. are good Although I have noticed that some of them appear to be very high brow artists, yeah. Which is a bit academic really because you know it's hard and then, yeah, but you know, the, the people engaged in the production of the art

Appear to be, I don't know it's a hierarchical system or if it's um. A status thing but they they don't seem very welcoming. And maybe that's because of the inherent racism within the arts or maybe it's because, you know, it's more protectionism, you know

And when I say protectionism, protectionism imbibes the racism also. Yeah. To to maintain that status quo, I assume, right

And the work that you do, and uh and we've spoken about this before, you very much believe in bringing people together, collectively learning, sharing, co-producing. Yeah. But there's this racism that you've talked about and this protectionism and all this, it seems to be at odds with the idea of the work that you do

It is, but it. It is, it is, it is a bit of a dire pole, but what it. What I do

I basically enjoy what I do so much that it doesn't really matter what I have to fight to go through. I actually enjoy what I do. You know, and It's nice to see the participants enjoy themselves and learn something, you know, I teach children and adults things that they never believed that would work and they've seen things and hopefully I've expanded their outlook and

The General Feeling about life, you know, I've, I've seen children, you know, all of a sudden enjoying themselves with things that they said, don't work, it'll never work. I've seen adults the same, you know, and it's nice to get people into that um. Childlike learning learning stage in their brain, where they take things on board and they learn things and they start sharing things and start talking and you know art is a bit more than just doing an art project, I think it's a learning experience for people, you know, whether it be a cultural, whether it be a um emotional thing, you know, it's a sharing process, yeah

Yeah, that's really eloquent and so I'm wondering, you talked about the microaggressions and then you talked about the Um Direct racism. So like those people that are doing and perpetrating racism, what would you want to say to them, like what do we need to see change in the world? Wow. I don't want to go into those people's heads and think about them and what they've got going on with, with their lives or their life experiences really telling the truth, but I would say that

Reflective. Work It can be very useful for people. Yeah

Can I ask you why you wanted to share your story about the experiences as a black facilitator, artist, co-producer? Cause I like transparency and I don't, I don't think people need to know and learn from them. And learn, yeah, people need to learn and you know, it's, it's not just me, it's everyone, you know, and I think. For me to share this is just plain and simply useful, you know, when you, when you open a can of worms

You just like dash it away, you look at the worms and see what kind of worms you've got to deal with, yeah. What else have you, would you like to share with me? Uh, I love the work I do. I love the experience

And I think we need more art in the world and more love in the world, and more um effective thinking about art and why we do it and for what purpose? And we need to um Share more resources, share more skills. Yeah. And do you think uh and the way that you work can help tackle some of these

Inequalities that happen around people that are from minoritized communities. Uh, Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely

I mean, you know, you've got so many um. Different people with different outlooks, but when you get them to space. A lot of barriers break down immediately, and even, you know, even people from the same culture and the same race, there's barriers to be broken down

Yeah, and I think, you know, in the UK. I think you're obviously. I mean, black

People Or shall I say ethnic people of a certain age, have certain certain experiences from the past which, They may find very difficult. To bridge And I think art is a very good way of doing it. And we also have

Young people Who for whatever reasons have bridges to be built, and for the next generation, I think once you break through those barriers. And people realise that actually we are one people and we can share, we can enjoy each other each other's company. I think it opens up a whole new world of expressionism for people

Really eloquent and powerful, and I'm just. Going back to like You turning up into these spaces and. Not being heard, um, not having the same opportunity, but yet you'll fight to do the stuff that you do

Wow, very powerful. I was just wondering before we come to the end of the time that we've got together if you had any final um views or um comments that you wanted to share, particularly for this project. I want to share, yeah, yeah, I think it's important for as many people as possible

are aware of of this project and Take a moment Or to just to reflect on it. Yeah. Because co-production is important, it's not, I mean, most people think coal production is going into a supermarket and doing the self checkout or going to the cashpoint machine and taking your money out of that a teller, you know

Or go to the tube station, get a ticket if I go to the ticket office, but there's a bit more to um co-production than that. You know. And people have to take away something with them

That's more meaningful and more expressive and more dynamic within those kind of like constraints of um co-production because co-production. Can be a tool that can benefit everyone. It's not just them

The autos, you know, kind of thing that. Run things or anything like that, I think, you know, I've been thought that people. Share the knowledge they have the schools they have and

You know, it's a bit like a mix and match, you know, and and obviously with a mix and match, not everyone's gonna mix and match, you know, cos people are people, but. It does break a lot of barriers and it does help people to achieve their best, and that's what you want, we want everyone to achieve their best. Yeah

Brilliant. I haven't got any further questions. Do you have any questions for me or? Uh, not at the moment, no

OK. Let me pause the recording there then, um.