Clenton Talks About Co-Production

Yeah. Cool. Can I first of all get you to introduce yourself? OK, um, hold on, let me press that. Um, my name's Clinton Varguson, er, I would describe myself as a, a, a black disabled, er er person, er, and yeah, um, co-production

I'm very passionate about co-production and personalization. Mm. Thanks, Clinton

So we're looking at exploring what's the experience of people from a racialized background, global majority backgrounds in co-production. So what's your experience been of co-production as a, as a black man, as a disabled man? Um, It's been The spaces that we create around co-production has tended to be er the um majority white space er um but also a quite privileged space uh uh for um the you know, majority in the uh in the UK so often because of that worldview. And if you're coming in from a a a global majority, especially being, you know, um er er you know er er er you know, black and disabled, uh, um, it can be alien because your perspective is often put down

And can I ask you like how like racism, if at all, was manifested in co-production spaces? Um We have to see, for me, co-production and racism is. Part of our everyday experience, even though we might use co-production as a vehicle to hold those conversations, we have to remember, uh, I believe racism was and still is, a daily problem, not something we just hear about and in, and you know, and it's a past. And it's like something that you might think, oh it's history class

It's part and parcel of everyday life in every activity you do as a black person, you will see uh either conscious uh racism. Or microaggression, it's there in plain sight. And how do you manage to keep on going when these are your experiences like

How do you just keep doing what you do? What I, what I've learned to er to, uh, I, it's the network, the support network that I have and just to remind myself er and the others who are in my support network. That um it's not just happening to you. Uh, and, um, to have a support network that uplifts you

But also That reassures you that um we've got your back, if that makes er er uh sense, so for me, a lot of people find it very hard to talk about racism. But racism is every part of my living er er um daily life. It's like the oxygen that I I take

Racism is in my face every day. And er it it's a lot of people think about racism as in your face. Racism can also be about the microaggressions that the um the inbuilt bias

You know, that um er racism has kind of created in people's consciousness. And thinking And I know you're a big advocate of co-production, also a big advocate of, I would say trying to get people to. Um, I suppose be anti-racist

What is it we can do to create. Uh, a different co-production space around inclusion, being anti-racist, like what, now what does that really mean? For me, we, uh, I call it um housekeeping, and what I mean by housekeeping is. Uh, intentionally address the elephant in the room

Cos we don't cocon oxygen, I'll, we'll get a group of people together and they'll be nice to each other. And we often use community er as er er er er and say oh, community is nice to each other and kindness. And if community was nice to each other and kindness, we wouldn't need co-production

Racism would be a er dismantled. And we've got the er a a a premise that, all we have to do is be nice. You know, and for me, niceness is, is, you know, is a, is a, is a must

It's not a, a, a thing to, you know, er, have, it's a must, it's not a should. You should be nice to er to each other. It's a must to be nice to each other, you know, and we don't

Actually explain what is the behaviour. That we wish to. Exhibit to each other if we're gonna talk about caring about each other

What does that actually mean? What's the behaviour behind that, and that's what I mean by um house, you know, the housekeeping and the elephant in the room, we dance around it. All the time, you know, and you've got principles like. equality, accessibility, um, lovely words that no one would disagree with

But what's the behaviour behind it? We haven't articulated that for, for me, and that has issues if you want to be anti-racist. You know, it's not, oh, you know, and people try and talk, they don't want to talk about being anti-racist, they don't mind talking about it as um EDI as uh you know, um, equality, equity, er diversity or inclusion. For some people that's more palatable

But behind it all, even being an anti-racist is power. And when I've been having conversations with other people, they've shared, like, how racism has affected them in their, like, so I see you as a leader, and you, you, like, I've known you many, many years. Like, how has racism affected kind of your leadership role or your roles in co-production? Um, and would you be able to give us some examples? OK, uh, for me, um, growing up

Exposed me to, uh, you know, racism, um, um, you know, disability, even when I didn't have my physical disability, I didn't even know when, when I had when I had dyslexia as an invisible disability, it was often so I just think stupid. So, um, for me, um, if you will, imagine growing up in, you know, growing up in parts of Birmingham. I don't know how well you know er er at Birmingham, but there's a place called where I grew up, called Balsall Heath

Uh, which people sometimes refer to as Southern. Think about the language southern and what it, you know, it had um biblical reference, uh, uh, because it was, um, a pretty rough, uh, round the edges, uh, I'm being polite, it's changed now, um but growing up, uh, that, that was my playground as a child and. You know, witnessed, you know, um, racism, I, I, I witnessed how, um, you know, um, we were at the, at the time growing up, the capital of the sex industry, it was, um, lots of prostitution

Was growing, growing up and seeing that and witnessing that and it was a place that no one really wanted to live in. That was, and it was named the ghetto, you know, er, you know, growing up, but that's where my parents from Woodrush you know, Woodrush er er you know, generation moved from Jamaica to the UK and um. And they moved to, you know, for a better, um, start, you know, that, um, it would, you know, help support and rebuild the er the motherland, as my er er mum and dad used to talk about it, but, um, instead of when they, how they, their dreams and vision of coming to this country, um, that they've talked about um

You know, the streets paved er with opportunities and gold and, you know, that's how they saw the er the motherland uh but their reality was often um er ran into barriers of hardship, you know, um. You know, signs of um no blacks, no Irish, er er no dubs, no one would sell them or rent them. A house or thing

So you know, our generation growing up, all my cousins and aunts, we all lived in, you know, a Victorian house, you know, because no one would rent to us, you know, if you were black. That's, um, you know. Taught me uh and learnt me some hard, tough truths about er early on about how racism can manifest because it wasn't in technically in law or legislation, but it was behaviours of people, whether that was conscious or unconscious

And if you just look at some of the programmes at that time like um. Oh, what was, um, uh, um, love thy neighbour, growing up and it, it all had that, um, racism or undertone, but it was. It was the elephant in the room

People just carried it on, you know, you know, and saying, oh, you, you're being a little bit too sensitive. But for me, racism, yeah, racism was that daily problem and not something you just heard about, like I said in class or in history class, cos it even robbed us of our own history. You know, uh, you know, even when, um

I realised racism at an early age when having a conversation with the RE teacher and they were showing Jesus as this blue, blue-eyed, you know, and I as a kid, because the picture that I had in our home. He was black. He was black and I so I'm saying, well, excuse me, sir, uh, you know, Jesus couldn't be was because hot country

He had I, you know, and I got, you know, dismissed out of hand and told to go out the er the the class cos I was blasphemy. And I didn't even know what the word blasphemy er er was, but those are small little, you know, reminders of. Your place in the world er for me and it just, You know, um, and I realised it's, it was racism's in the air, and it's like, um, pollution, you, you get used to it, and especially in Birmingham in its industrial heyday, we had loads of pollution and that's how I represented, you know, er, racism, so it wasn't just about people being obviously mean or unfair, but also

The little geeks, you know, and negative stereotypes that. coloured our everyday experience. That's what I would say, yeah

And like fast forward to now, like you're in. I think quite an important role, um, nationally, being a black man, being someone that we, many of us look up to. How and does it, racism still manifest itself in co-production? And like, what can we do different, like, cos I, I, I could listen to you all day, but I don't hear people saying the things that you're saying, um, about we need to think about this as an everyday experience

So how, how do you. Does this still happen in like co-production in the work that you do? I'm not talking about particular organisations. But I, I intentionally talk about it and what I mean by that is I explain the everyday racism

A classic one, might be through, uh, you know, er what I call, um, you know, um, microaggressions, you know, it might, a classic one is, um, I have people sometimes say, uh. I love your hair. And I'm not, OK

And then like. Just You know, put their hand in my hair and I'm like. That's quite aggressive

And I, and I'll say to them, so just imagine I come up to you, we're having a conversation as we are now and say I love your hair. And they're like What would you say? And they say, well, I, it, yeah, yeah, I understand where you're coming from. That's the thing for me, when you, you have to make people consciously think

About their actions You know, you don't have to punch him on the on on on the face, but you consciously make them think about would you do that to anyone and the classic one, and I still get asked where are you from? And I go, Bors Salif, I was brought up in Bor Salif, er, you know, now he's got classed as Moseley. And they go, no, no, where are you from? And I go, OK, so I need to go a little bit more in depth, er, Borselli, Mosely, I was brought up in er er you know, Sorrento Hospital, and they go, no, no, no. Where's your parents from? And I'm like, what's that gut to? Got to do, I said my parents are from the Caribbean, from a small island called Jamaica, but that's where, you know, another white person meeting a white don't uh go where you, you know, where are you from then start going, no, where are you from? You know, are you, you know, um, originally from, you know, a Swedish er country, you know, we don't drill down, but no, where are you from? Boy, Those are the sort of things uh we do, you know, and we still, I remember growing up at the micro things going, when I growing up, going on a bus

Uh, you know, and my mum going on the bus and I couldn't sit with my mum on the bus cos it was quite packed, and I had to sit by, er, um, an older white lady, and the first thing she did was move her bag, move her bag, you know. Away is far away from me, but that does, and that happened it wasn't just a a one off, that happens constantly. You know, even to shake your hand, my people will go, some people, not everyone, but you can see it on their faces, they don't want to, you know, I've had people actually do that

To shake my hand, not shake it like properly. Those are the micro incidents when we're talking about racism and people think, oh, we've gone past that. Have we? Really? And when you're in spaces, which I often see you in spaces talking about, we need to ensure diversity, how does that go down? So like, what are you, what are we, what do we need to do to make

I suppose co-production, the work that we do. More accessible, less harmful to people. We've got to acknowledge the trauma that people's experience has, you know, built up with a lot of people who um the most marginalised of people, you know, er have had trauma within their er er experience and that shapes how they view

Uh things, but we, we don't really talk about that. You know, and that's why some people might come across as being aggressive. Or, you know, because all negative in that space, because their experience of, uh, you know, um, trying to get their voice heard

Never mind seen, heard, and really listened to is a different experience from. What I would call um. More, um

White middle class Cos our experiences are really different from white middle class and the opportunities, just to think about leadership opportunities or training opportunities. It's there in your face, but a lot of people don't see it. Cause it's Outside of their worldview, and they think they are being fair

You know, but a lot of the opportunities, especially like leadership opportunities. You know, how, how fair or equitable is it? And do we measure that? That's the sort of things for me, I, I want to bring consciously into er people's thinking. And what role do you think our white peers and colleagues and facilitators that are doing, you know, there's a lot of white people doing co-production

We've been on calls. We've been at events where we might be the only two people there that are black and brown. What, what do people need to do to, to start to address this? Cause we can't obviously address all of this

We, we can't address this on our own. And er um what I say to our er white colleagues, our brothers and sisters, cos they are our brothers and sisters, they have a role as a, you know, active allies. And what I mean by activeana is calling things out

And also challenging the status quo. I believe all of us, it's our duty to challenge the status quo, but also remembering how we challenge the status quo. We have to do it more subtly, but we, uh, but you can still challenge the status quo

You know, and I er believe that um it's about. Having the tools to do that. You know, uh uh and

You know, I used to er um the only tool I had in my tool bag at the time was like a er er I saw everything as a nail, I was the hammer. That didn't work because a lot of people then shut me out of conversations cos I was too angry and I couldn't articulate what I needed to pause and think. But I just rushing and seeing every conversation is that now, I've got a tool that you need to listen to

I was the hammer. You know, sometimes that context is needed. But you need more tools in, in your toolbox and I that's why for me

How many, you know, black and Asian, or brown faced people, the global majority, how many opportunities do we get to really understand leadership and the tools needed that enable us to, you know, occupy that space. And what are your hopes for? Co-production going forward, like, so what would you hope that we learn as a result of, you know, paying attention, calling it out, ally ship. Me, co-production for me is

Uh, um, it should be the vehicle to aid conversations that enable people to live. The fullest life possible, but you have to um I see co-production as a jigsaw puzzle. And you have many pieces, it could that

Pieces could be a 10,000 piece jigsaw, and what I mean by uh uh that is we often uh just focus on those 10,000 pieces and forget the bigger picture. What is the clear picture and goal that we use in co-production for? Is it to make things better? And if it is, We need to understand the big picture. From the jigsaw pieces cos sometimes we just focus on, you know, the different pieces of er er of the jigsaw puzzle, but you need

All of those pieces. And any missing pieces like um it could be LGBT and black. And if that's not in, you know, in uh in part of the jigsaw pieces

That's a massive er er picture missing from, from my perspective. There's a lot of talk now about kind of looking at intersectional experiences. Like what does that mean to you in terms of co-production? We have to, we have to describe what we mean by intersectionality

We um, we have made it a very academic term, you know, er er and I'll hear people quote, well Kimberley, er, Cranshaw, you know, uh, you know, the, the third, but it's, how do we bring alive into sectionality for me, um, we have multiple identities. And I'm er what gets me um roiled is. Asking me to, um, it's like the analogy of mayonnaise, think about the ingredients to make mayonnaise

Once you emulsify it and mix it together, you can't separate mayonnaise. Now think about that as in the terms of intersectionality. Why should I be picking, you know, er, being a man, being black

And my, and my, uh, you know, I can't. I can't separate cause they affect every context of of my being, and especially in the spaces that I go into. So it's about understanding what intersectionality means, bringing it to life

My final question is like, what would you, have you got any key messages? That you'd want people to hear around how we truly make co-production, more inclusive, less racist, you know, and I'm gonna use the word racist because everyone's talked about racism and not shy away from difficult conversations. I would class that um I've got 5 things that I think uh um we need to think about when we talk about racism. Think of racism as everyday racism

If we think about it in that term, you know, think about one for me would be racism as a systematic issue. It's not just about individuals being, you know, prejudiced against each other. Racism and being anti-racist, you have to think in the big picture, remember like uh uh the, the analogy of the jigsaw pieces, if that piece isn't there

And racism isn't just about the individual like I said, it's uh it it's built into the largest system, like education, employment, housing, social care, you know, and we, we have to move from thinking about it as. Um, Addressing it is case to case issue, systematic, so that'll be one. Second for me would be um

The importance of speaking out. And you know, and silences, silence in the face of racism is um complicit for a better word. Being silent, we've been part of er er er of being complicit in my m, so it's vital to speak out against uh injustice and challenge the status quo

To prevent racism from being the everyday or accepted in society for for me too, um. 3 would be about. The power of representation

If you can't see someone like yourself. I believe you can't. You, you know, you can't build what you can't imagine

So, you know, power of representation for me is really important. Uh, 4th is what we've always talked about me and you and others, sharing stories as a tool for change. You know, and that could be, um, you know, personal experiences like you're doing in this case about racism, but also um

What do you know, what are films, literature, the arts, can it can educate us and inform us, you know, uh, but also remember it influences the broader public. How do we use it as a tool for good? You know, and that would be 4 and 5 for me is about how do we create and grow community activism. That will drive reform, you know, grassroots movements, you know, community involvement are powerful forces cos I've learned so much from the civil rights movement, LG er LGBT plus movement, um, you know, um, you know, feminist movement

I've learnt lots of common issues from these different movements, and I think that's what. Would help, those are the 5 things for me. Any final thoughts before we come to an end? I just

For me, um, to solve, er, er, you know, um, or to look through the lens of um, you know, being anti-racist. Is a useful way to look at intersectionality, and also it helps that multi-layered approach when we talk about um uh discrimination. Thanks Clinton

I'm gonna stop the recording if you're OK with that. Yeah.