Ashleigh

Computer. So first of all, I want you to introduce yourself and tell me what makes you tick. Ooh, um, so my name is Ashley, um, and what makes me tick? Nowadays I don't know. I'm at that middle part of my life where I just don't know, um

And I feel like I always drop into boring answers that are work related or to do with what I do or to do with, you know. Work really, so it's a bit, isn't it? I don't think so, but what's, what are you passionate about? Um, I'm passionate about improving services for children in care, that's like become my ultimate mission, um. I work outside of work, it seems to blur into all aspects of my life

Um, just because I think when I was growing up it was so taboo to have care experience. You really were taught that it was something that you should not tell people, you should be ashamed of it, you should not disclose it, um, people's opinion will drop of you, and I think I became really, really stubborn and I was like, actually if people start talking about it more. It will become less taboo and it will be more normalised

And so I think I've made that my mission. So I think that's my passion is making it more accepted that there are people in care and we are just people, and we will grow into every range of adult out there as normal people will. Mm

Wonderful. And I'm so grateful that you're doing this work. It's so needed

I'm just wondering like what's your experience of co-production been? If I'm being honest. I, I love to be very positive about co-production, and I think sometimes that can mask the fact that I have not had a very positive experience of co-production personally. There have been times or organisations or instances of positive co-production

But in the main. I would say that my co-production journey has not been very positive at all, um, especially because I am also a professional in children's social care. I feel like I'm always having to choose a hat, and I feel like I've been in environments where

I've been asked why I have a staff badge or I've had a joke made at my expense or I've had people's opinions drop and be told I can't or shouldn't be doing a piece of work or just people's tone of voice when they, it's sometimes it's really hard to explain like the unconscious nature of how co-production can sometimes not be positive, but I have faced my entire career being somebody that co-produces as well. So much stigma, so many barriers, um. You know, I've been in an adoption panel talking about adoption and been as a professional and been told, oh Ashley, you know you're too old to be adopted now

And I was 23 at the time, so I was, I was really aware, but it was just a complete, it took away from my professional identity. I think people find it hard to see that somebody is able to wear two hats. And I think I have had a whole range of discrimination through the fact that I identify as someone care experienced and I identify as somebody that wants to co-produce

So whether it be my age or whether it be the complete reverse and I'm now too professional and therefore my lived experience is invalid because you can't be both a professional and someone with lived experience in the eyes of many people, or so I feel like I'm constantly in this space where. I'm Kind of pushed from all sides, on a professional side and pushed and said you don't belong here. In the lived experience cohort I'm pushed and said you don't belong here

In local authorities or organisations that I work with, I'm pushed into a box occasionally of what they would like me to bring forward, um. And there's, there's been times that I've been taught to kind of feel ashamed that it's wrong that I would be advocating for lived experience or co-production, and I've been very, very blessed that because I'm now somebody that enables co-production through the services that I deliver. In my own journey of delivering co-production instead of being involved in it, I've managed to be a lot more conscious to how people can feel in that cycle

Um, but I would say, you know, I've been co-producing since I was 15. With corporate parenting panels, um, with fostering and adoption services, with local authorities, but I've been a professional as well since I was 19. Um, and it doesn't matter the fact that I'm now nearly 10 years into that professional journey

There isn't an acceptance yet that I can be both, and both of them are in knowledge and expertise that I can pull on. Um, and I do think sometimes the fact that I'm a woman comes into it as well, because I do see a lot of lived experienced leaders. Um, That are male that

are doing very well or spotlighted or, you know, working alongside government all the time or working in um high positions or or working with organisations consistently. And I don't see that same equitability for me, um. You know, What impact does that have on you? It's hard because when you're so passionate about something and it's the thing that drives you and you have an understanding of the way that you co-produce, so I never co-produce with ill intention

And I never co-produce for my own objectives. I only co-produce for trying to make things better and more equitable and trying to innovate a little bit or trying to see all the lenses that I'm very blessed that I can have a professional lens and a lived experience lens and use them both to try and come to answers. I think when you are just passionate about improving things in general

Um, And walls are put up and barriers are put up and doors are closed and You're told Which parts of your identity, you know, are valid at a point in time, or to hide, I've been told by other professionals to hide my lived experience. I've, I've been told by other people with lived experience to hide my lived experience. Even down to this is not co-production, but I've been having a drink at a bar and somebody's asked me about my parents and I'm not gonna lie

Um, and I said, you know, well I'm care experienced, I don't really see them. And they said, oh well, you need to come with a trigger warning, don't you? You can't just say stuff like that. And I'm like, oh, I can't just like what else was I? So there's this fear that it's, it's better to lie

It's better to lie than be care experienced. It's better to lie at work and not be care experienced. It's better to lie in your personal life and not be care experienced because it's more palatable for people

So I think you get to a point where you feel um. A bit browbeaten if I'm honest, because you're just trying to do something positive and make a positive change and have a positive impact with no kind of um. There's no reward for yourself in it

You're not doing it for an outcome for yourself. If I change housing for young people, it doesn't mean I get housing. If I change um young people's access to accommodation, it's no longer valid for me

That doesn't do anything for me, but it's better for them. But you, you're perceived as somebody that's just trying to. Go on your own whims or your own and as if there's something for you to get out of it

Um, and the only thing that you're trying to get out of it at all is a fairer and more equitable. Positive experience for young people, um, so I would say browbeating is definitely true, um, on the flip side when co-production goes really well. And when people are open to it and when there is the right environment with the right respect and the right energy and the right intention

You do feel like wow this is really worthwhile and it's really working or when you do a piece of training for a bunch of social workers and they say wow, I've never even thought of it like that. My my practise is gonna change because of it. Those are the moments that make it all worthwhile, but we are definitely in

A bit of a rut at the minute where co-production is a buzzword. And I don't know if everybody truly understands what co-production means in terms of power sharing, equitability, access, um, empowering people. Um, I think co-production is still perceived, unconsciously, maybe, as a threat

Yeah, can I ask you, um, so this, one of the reasons why I thought you would be great to share your story is because I've seen you really stand up around equitable inequality in co-production. Um, and I'm wondering about how co-production spaces make sense to racialized communities, people that, you know, like the idea of co-production is supposed to be like based on diversity, inclusion. This is the thing, we

Everywhere you look there's an EDI policy somewhere and it's a really nice piece of paper and it sets out intention. But the translation from intention into like action sometimes is disconnected. So one phrase that is my least favourite phrase is hard to engage and people from black and brown communities are always seem to fit in people's lenses as hard to engage, um, and when you ask people, you know, why the representation is low, they will say harder to engage or more complex needs or

And I think that's a bit of a cop out. I think there is no such thing as hard to engage. I think we haven't found the right ways to engage them

I think there needs to be better representation and it's the same way we say it with for everything, in order to attract people into the police, the police needs to be more representative, in order to attract people into teaching, teaching needs to be more representative. In order to attract people into co-production, co-production has to be more representative. And I think at the moment we're not yet in a space where co-production space is representative

Sometimes we tend to be in spaces where this lens of easier to engage means that the same people are constantly co-produced with and we don't really challenge ourselves to invite people into the spaces that wouldn't. Usually be in them, and sometimes it's a lack of awareness as well and I don't think people are doing enough of the awareness raising, especially with black and brown communities around the power of co-production and power sharing and what it can achieve. I have been in spaces before where I've seen people tick off that co-production is done, and when I've asked if they've made sure that the sample of people is representative of who they serve

They will say it's who was available, and I think You are not yet in an equitable co-production space. If you are from an in inner London borough and you're in children's services. And 80% of your young people in care are from black and brown communities

Your co-production group should not be 80% white, it should be representative of the population that you have. Um, so I think sometimes there's like quick wins and easy wins that we're not doing. We're not getting back to the base of who is the community that we're serving for the piece of engagement and who, how do we make it equitable for the representation

I think sometimes people are scared of some of the difficult conversations. Um, and there are difficult conversations and sometimes it can be really. Easy to shy away from conversations that make us uncomfortable

So, I guarantee you if there was a co-production piece of work that was specifically looking at. Why young people in care from black and brown communities have to their fees in foster care and residential are higher. If you said to those communities, this is the piece of co-production that we're doing and it's singing to something that is really relevant to them, of course they're gonna come and be a part of that work

But co-production is usually about rewriting a pledge or writing a piece of work, or I don't see many co-production pieces work around anti-racist practise, around, um, you know, racial inequality. Um, and I think that's because a lot of spaces say they have EDI forums in the workplace, but they forget they're actually focusing in on co-production. Is also how you fix this, it's not just about the people in your organisation, it's about the people that you serve

Have you seen racism play out in spaces of co-production? I have seen. I wouldn't say overt racism. I wouldn't say I've seen somebody say something that's really, really blatant and obvious

I think the way that it plays out in co-production spaces is who's chosen for what and when. The amount of involvement people are enabled to have, the amount of power that's shared with them, um, I've been, you know, in spaces where I've seen local authorities with apprenticeship programmes for care-experienced young people and. People have come through and I find myself wondering if that's the most representative and how they've gone through and was it an anonymized process and were names withdrawn and was it equitable to to get to this point? Um, I, so I don't, I've never seen somebody say something that I'm like, that is really blatant

But what I have seen is the unconscious behaviour and actions that go with systemic or embedded racism. um, and I have seen. People be discluded or discounted or not given opportunities to be involved

I've seen people's opinions not be held in the same esteem. I've seen people really have to battle for their voices to be heard. Um, So I think People don't get in the frame of mind of like unconscious bias training

And focused in on co-production and the way that unconscious bias feeds into co-production spaces. I haven't seen any specific training around that. I haven't, um, heard of anyone delivering some training around that

But anything, if you look at what racism is. As a whole, it is that power imbalance, it is that systemic embedded power imbalance, and that power imbalance is mirrored in co-production. So you need really open and honest conversations, you know, I've been in spaces where

Somebody has said a term or a phrase doesn't offend them. But actually when you look into the history of it and the background, it offends a really large number of people, but because it doesn't offend them or people that they know, then it's seen under that lens instead of that wider understanding of how this could be hurtful to some people. So I think it's, it's until we get to a space where we're widening our knowledge, where we're co-producing

Training for people that co-produce and being really open about the fact that anti-racist anti-racist co-production training needs to happen, I think we'll be in the same space, but definitely in terms of equitability, in terms of access, in terms of power sharing. I've definitely seen it. How does it feel like now I, I, I, I know that you're in lots of space, so how does it feel? Or, or, you know, being in their spaces and then there might not be any black or brown faces in there, how does that feel, like, what kind of

Thinking and feeling goes through your mind. Well, I'm the sort of person that will challenge it, but I'm the sort of person that will challenge it because generally, not just under that lens, when something isn't equitable, I will speak up about it. Um, I think it's very, very frustrating, number one, because you feel like it's just the absolute base

Um, making spaces equitable, making sure they have good representation, making sure the broadest range of voices is involved. It's just the absolute base. So I feel very frustrated and disheartened because I know

I can only bring the perspective, for instance, of somebody from my background, my heritage with my care experience. My care experience journey is very, very, very different than a black male who came into care in his teens. That's a very, very, very different journey

So if voices like mine are really well accepted and really well heard but voices like theirs aren't. All the solutions that we find are fixed around that experience instead of all experiences. And it comes through in the results, it comes through in in what's changed

There's things that in Children's social care have been spoken about for a really, really, really long time and we haven't been able to find the answers to those issues yet. Like I mentioned around why homes for black young people cost more than homes for white young people. Um, and there's stuff that I can see from my perspective around language and the way that we write about people, but there's stuff that I can never translate, and it needs somebody from that heritage, from that experience to say, actually, and I also think it's because of this, and I think because when I did this it was perceived in that way and it was written about like this, and I think it's because I had to move more or it's that voice and

My voice cannot be that voice. That voice has to be upheld. So I think frustrating, um, especially considering how much of the care experienced community is from racially diverse backgrounds

It would be nice to see higher representation in co-production spaces. So I have known you to share your personal experiences about being of dual or mixed heritage. And that thing around you always calling it out around, you know, where are the black and brown people just really struck a chord with me

And I'm wondering about facilitators and leaders in co-production, how diverse that is. Like, so the people organising co-production in itself, so we've got. Problem maybe with co-production not being so diverse and those microaggressions playing out

What about your experience of like people facilitating co-production? I mean, I've, I mean, I've worked with quite a few London boroughs. So I would say in terms of like children in care councils, um. I would say, you know, at that level

I have been lucky to see representation. I think the issue. Lies that that representation doesn't always translate to the people with the power to implement the decisions, um, so it's absolutely great if uh an engagement worker or an engagement lead is from a diverse background, but if they're

Reporting into leadership and systems and places that aren't diverse and representative, then it still has that disconnect. um, and I think one thing that we get really, really, really wrong is we think that co-production can be done with one person leading on it. And one person can never be representative, whether that's one person that is white, whether they're black, whether they're purple, whether they're green, they will represent

Who they are similar to. And in co-production spaces I think everyone always talks about lack of resources and but if we're only having one person, it is really hard to make that representative for people. Um, and the majority of spaces that I've been in, it's been one, maybe two people at the max that are kind of facilitating and leading co-production

Um, and I think for me. There needs to be a call to have a a broader number of people, a broader range of people, and maybe new ways of thinking about it as well, because if it's a resource issue, for instance, don't have one full-time person, have two part-time people. You know, that then can be more representative and they, they, they work together, they have a crossover day

um, there's ways that you can do it if you want to do it. Um, and even just championing if you're, if you don't have the resources to employ more people. How are you using the co-pro people that you co-produce with to be representative? Do you have ambassadors? Are the ambassadors representative? Do you have people that volunteer and the volunteers are representative? Do, there are other ways that you can bring it in, um, so I would say for a leadership level, senior leadership is less representative in co-production spaces for sure, but we know that's a problem in general, um

In services is that usually leadership is less representative, um, but then I always feel like there's quick wins and ways that you can make it more representative and it's not always down to resources, I think resources is sometimes a little bit of a cop out. Um, and I think. I would like to see more places that co-produce using ambassadors or using volunteers or just using what's available to make these spaces feel safe and attractive and

Accessible for the broadest range of people really. Do you have an opinion on how we make these spaces safe for uh black and brown people? I think it's hard because everyone will have a personal definition of what is safe and what feels safe, and for one person, lack of representation could make an environment feel unsafe. For another person, not being able to confidently and comfortably speak about their experience without fear

Of upsetting somebody is what makes them feel upset, uh, unsafe. I think for another person, you know, feeling singled out or feeling like they're the only person that looks like them makes the environment feel unsafe. So I think there's a really, really broad range of what can make someone feel unsafe

Um, I think in order to make spaces feel broadly more safe for people, that comes through with. One, an awareness of the language that we use and how that makes people feel. Like there's been a lot around reclaiming language recently and understanding that if a group reclaims a piece of language that doesn't necessarily mean that it's your language to reclaim or so on and so forth, um

Making sure that people feel that they can share their experience without judgement or without fear of upsetting someone. I think more training around how we manage people's emotions, um, for instance, you. Can't work in an anti-racist frame of mind if you cannot yet admit that racism happens

And for some people they can see it, but they can see it over there, or they can see it, you know, in that organisation but not in their own, or they can see it on a particular issue but they can't understand it systemically. So I think there needs to be an acceptance that. Racism does take place and it is systemic and it is embedded, um

And then that uncomfortable conversation with the people themselves. How do we make these spaces more safe, more equitable, more accessible? What is it that people do that makes spaces feel unsafe for you? And then how do we fix that? Because I can only go through my lens. I can only go through the lens of what would make me feel sense and then applying common sense for other people from what I know

Yeah. I can't answer on behalf of other people. Yeah

Can I ask you, cause I've heard a lot in conversations that I've collected today, we've sent our conversation around co-production and the here and now, and I'm wondering about, like, the broader world outside how that comes into co-production spaces, particularly the stuff around. You know, being from, um, a background where you might have mixed heritage or being somebody that lives in a diverse community and races and places like that, does that, like, what's your experience of like kind of wider influences. So I think for me, I'm someone of dual heritage and for me

I am more white facing 100%, so I think. I haven't had. Like the worst experience, but I've had, really strange and uncomfortable things, so I've had like, Oh, well I knew you're not white, white, are you? Or I've had, you know, comments around, oh, you know, you've got rhythm for a white girl, or, oh, you've and so I think I've seen it be hard for people to understand my dual heritage and it's like, well you look white, but you're not white, so I don't really know where to put you and I don't really know how to treat you

And it's not obvious enough what your background is for me to have any like overt. Form of racism, but covertly for me, you know, My race isn't Isn't relevant, and I've seen relevance be placed on it. Um, for me, I am just me and I'm from my background and I'll be from my background no matter what, and it's not really for people to comment on

Yeah. But when people do say stuff like, oh well you're not white, white, and this has been in workplaces, you know, or in a bar or it's been in the full spectrum of spaces. And it's just then shows to me that they've attached some feeling of not being unable to understand where I'm placed and then a bit of uncomfortableness from them about the fact that they're not quite able to place me instead of just taking me on the value of wherever she's from

Yeah. She's Ashley, and you know, we'll take her on that. And how? Actually co-producing, being in a wider world with lots of people around you that might be having other experiences

How does that make sense? Like, so I know that you've often talked about, like, you know, other people, the need to be inclusive, racism exists in the wider world. Like, how does the kind of social, political, wider world like, impact on. The production, I suppose

I think Because of how I look. Yeah. I have had privilege to be in the spaces that I've been in

And I'll be really honest about that because I'm a palatable form of care experience. When people get to know me and they understand I'm a little bit pushy and a little bit, I will call things out and I will be very direct, but I will find an articulate and pleasant way to do it. But I am what is perceived as Quite a bit less palatable than some, but still more palatable than others

Um, so I've had privilege and I think until people can be like me and acknowledge their privilege and the fact that that does exist and what comes with it, um, the problem just continues to play out. I think it's hard at the minute, especially in children's social care, and you hear. Everything that's happening around, you ask young people and young people that come to this country because they're in need of help and support and where they come from might not be safe, and they come here and they're not treated in the same way as another child and they're not given the same protection sometimes as other children or the same graces, um

That will then also play out into co-production spaces because their view is somewhat invalidated by people because they're seen as more mature or more capable or that they've been through less trauma, and trauma is very, very, very personal and I would say it's an incredible. Amount of trauma to lose your, not your just your entire home and your entire family, but your entire country and your entire culture and what you're used to and surroundings and I do hear conversations around, you know. Or even sometimes in, in fostering, I've I've heard people say, you know, they want you ask young people because they're easier

We're not, that doesn't even speak to or understand or go in that lens of what has brought this child to us and what are they juggling and what trauma have they had, and so obviously that's gonna play out in the spaces as well because we're just not hearing people in the same way. We're just not listening. Mm

Can I ask you, and like feel free not to ask, answer this question, but you. Have beautifully articulated, like, you know, we all wear multiple hats. And I'm just wondering about, like, your kind of friends, your colleagues, and their experiences

So like, do people come to you and share experiences of racism in co-production, racism in the wider, you know, like, I, I used, of course, I think. Because I am someone of dual heritage and I've been in the foster care system, which means that I've experienced a lot of cultures because I've had foster carers from a lot of different backgrounds. The friendship circle that mainly helped me when I was growing up, even before I came into care, was very diverse, very, it was a broader range of people

The homes that I've been brought into, the spaces that I've been brought into the lives of people that I've been brought into living in London. I have a really broad range of people that I speak to and that I talk to and that I'm friends with and. I'll be really honest, when I was younger, um, one, there's a book, why I'm no longer talking to white people about race, and, and in that book she says that in the UK we are really desensitised, really, really desensitised to like the UK's involvement in racism, um, and the UK's role in racism

And when I was younger, you know, when I was really young and you're just learning what you learn in school, and you can't necessarily see things through that lens yet because you're quite naive and you know, you think everything is lovely and sunshine and rainbows. What I have learnt from having people be comfortable to speak to me and from luckily being surrounded by so many people with so many experiences is that even as someone with dual heritage. I had

No idea. The levels. Of racism today, still, because I'd heard what everyone else heard, you know, we've come so far forward and it's not like that anymore, and actually, I would say now obviously being this age in the last

Kind of 78 years. My eyes have really, really, really opened through what people have been. Sharing with me and talking to me about and wanting somebody to vent to and my eyes have been really, really, really open to

Just how long of a way we have to go and how we are not all sunshine and rainbows and a million miles from where we used to be. Um, it's a very, I don't think I have one friend from a diverse background that has not shared an experience of racism with me. And that's not even them sitting down and saying this happened, this was racist

That's them sharing an experience with me or a day or a piece of their day or just conversation. Where I can see. That that was racist or I can see that that was bias or discriminatory or and the why

I've even been in, I'll give an example that is not related to work. I've been in. A shop before that I always go in and I'm always treated lovely in there, absolutely lovely, and I've gone to collect an order

My friend's with me and she is a black female. And we have gone into the store to collect this order, and the woman's energy is just so different. Now my friend is gonna think that that's just how this woman is because she hasn't seen her before, she hasn't experienced her before

But when I say this woman's energy was a million miles apart from the energy that I experienced every other time that I was in the store, um. Now applying common sense, I know that there was only one different factor between that time coming into the shop and all my other times coming into the shop. So I can see

What the difference is here. Um, So I think I've been shocked at. The daily experiences of people

The cos I'm very lucky in in how I look and I have a lot of privilege because of the way that I appear. But for so many people that I've directly witnessed their experiences or heard about them, it's still embedded in day to day. And that is for me

I mean, it's not even shocking anymore, it's. The bit, there was a point in my life where I was shocked by it. But now I feel like I would be shocked if I didn't hear it

Which for me it it creates such a battle in my mind because everything that we tell ourselves is we're an anti-racist society and and we've come so far and but then when you see your friends. And people that you're close to and people that you love and care about actually experiencing it pretty much every day. And I don't think people understand microaggressions very well

I don't think people understand different body language that they use with different people very well and what it tells them or what it puts forward. I don't think people are sometimes even aware of the fact that what they are doing or saying or the body language that they're using could come from a place of racism. I think people think that racism has to be that you have said that certain word or you have said I don't like someone because

Um. But it's so much more than that, it is the everyday treatment of people and it is the oppression that comes through people's actions and people's energy and even just the time that you have for people, um, and there are so many more layers to it. So yes, racism is about power imbalance and yes racism is about inequity

But for me it transcends more into that. If people cannot have an equitable day to day experience. That is racism, and sometimes we need to step

Away from that idea of systemic racism and just come back into racism in and of itself and understand that that is where it starts and the systemic racism is where it ends up. Yeah. Can I ask you, like, what do you think the solution to this particular round co-production is, like, what, what can people organisations do to

You know, be more equitable, really be anti-racist. Listen. Listen, And Really listen

Sometimes it can be easy to listen on the lens of what you need to hear or what you think the problem that you're solving is. But until there are safe spaces that people from diverse backgrounds can come into and be really open about the experiences that they've had and people really learn from them. And be open to learn from them

We aren't gonna make as much progress as we need to. So it would be very, very easy for somebody to say what I need to do is make co-production more representative. And yeah, you do, but what you first need to do is explore why it isn't representative and what are the barriers and why don't people feel comfortable or why don't they know about the spaces or and get to the heart of listening

Um, and the more that we listen, we will stop trying to come to people's answers for them, and we will come to answers with them. So I think that's in and of the main, it starts with listening and being open and understanding that you're probably gonna hear some things that make you feel uncomfortable. But uncomfortable is a really good space to be in when it comes to this stuff, um

And then from there is when you look at your implementation and your representation and but it needs to start with listening, we need to know what we're doing wrong. And I'm just wanting to kind of maybe. Go back to a point that you mentioned really early on is that, and this is probably a really wonky word, but that intersectionality, so you talked about being a woman, so I'm wondering about all of the other stuff that we might need to do

Would you say the same principles apply? Yeah, I, and I think this is sometimes. Where Race and racism deserves its own spotlight. In the same way that other areas of intersectionality deserve their own spotlight, but overarchingly, it needs to be how is this more equitable for everyone

How is it more accessible for everyone, how is it a safe space for everyone, so I think there are pockets of work that happen individually, but then it is that bringing it all together, bringing everyone together as well. Around how do we make these spaces because an example being the experience of, you know, a black female that might um identify that you know, she feels that she's attracted to women is gonna be a very, very different experience to. A black male who is heterosexual

Or the experience of an Asian woman who has transitioned is gonna be very, very, very different than the experience of, um, an Asian man that has identified that way always. So there are other crossovers of intersectionality and it's not just around gender, age comes into it. The experiences of an older male are gonna be different than the experience of a younger male

There's so many different levels. That it needs to be that. Understanding and learning for all

Have you got any final thoughts that you'd like to share with me? Just that I don't want anyone to take away that it's all doom and gloom, because it isn't. And there has definitely been a shift in the last few years of more of an appetite for co-production. And there are some people that do it beautifully

It's just not yet at a stage where everybody has an understood set of principles that they apply to co-production that is acknowledged as best practise and what we should be doing, which means depending on where you go or who you speak to or what group you're accessing, people will have very different experiences. I've been very, very, very blessed and lucky to be in some of the co-production spaces that I have, and I've also gone on a learning journey within those spaces and with those organisations where it might have started with some of the experiences that I've told you and shared about where it's been really, really negative. And through that co-production and collaboration, it's moved to somewhere where it's a lot more positive

That doesn't mean that those experiences don't happen and that's why it's important that I share those. It isn't all doom and gloom, because I I wouldn't want anyone to take away is that we're not getting co-production right so we should be scared of it and not do it. It is absolutely working in some spaces and it's working very well

It's absolutely growing in some spaces. In some spaces it's starting out. Through the uncomfortable conversations and through the learning and through being open to how we improve it

Is where it will get even better. But that's not to say it's all doom and gloom, it isn't, and these are the important conversations that make sure that we keep improving and keep championing and keep making spaces accessible. So I don't want people to, anyone to feel disempowered about co-production

I think this is a conversation on a certain topic and therefore it's brought out certain themes that are important to be brought out and be addressed. But in addressing them, then that shifts the conversation, where in a year's time, if me and you are having the same conversation, Isaac, we will have a lot more positive instances. It is of anti-racist co-production to share

Yeah. And I think that centering around how co-production is a vehicle for great good, but if we then do it in an anti-racist way, it can even be better. Yeah

Yeah. Exactly. And We're learning and we're growing and we're seeing more people be open to learning and growing

So we're in the right spaces. It's just now what we do with them. Absolutely

I haven't got any more questions for you. Do you have any for me? No, I don't think so. I mean, I'm definitely really interested to see what's pulled together and all the perspective and all the views

I won't ask you too much about it now until you're ready to share, um. But no, just I'm glad that the questions are being asked, and I'm glad that they're being asked from a broad range of people with a lot of different perspectives. Yeah, absolutely

Well, I will stop the recording there then..