Anna emphasises to Isaac that we need conversations about how we can have a society that brings everyone together. This needs to include who and what we value and how we can protect it in law. Additionally, Anna explains that using the word vulnerable puts people together in one category, but vulnerability is situation specific.

Disability Rights UK (DRUK) and  People’s Voice Media have engaged in dialogues with Deaf and Disabled people about their experiences of the COVID-19 pandemic and lockdowns. These lived experience narratives detail how people were treated by health and social care professionals, together with the difficulties Deaf and Disabled people faced when support and services were withdrawn by local authorities. Additionally, the dialogues explore how Deaf and Disabled people are currently managing in their daily lives, their hopes and expectations in terms of the COVID Inquiry.

These narratives are great ways to learn from one another, and can be powerful communication methods. Some of the people sharing their lived experience are speaking on behalf of people they care for who do not communicate verbally.

So my first question is, could you tell me a little bit about yourself? So a bit of like my background. So I was born deaf. So to start with, I was born hard of hearing. And then as I grew older, I became profoundly deaf

Roughly when I was about a teenager, and then I got a cochlear implant. I have a cochlear implant, and I have a hearing aid in my left ear. So I use both a cochlear implant and a hearing aid

I can speak as well, but BSL is my first language. So my background I do, uh, in terms of career is I'm a BSL teacher and I work at York Saint John. Is there anything more that Mm

I'm just trying to think of anything more that you want to know what? What's important to you in your life, family and friends and what is extremely, they're the most, uh, extremely important. And the most extremely important is the dogs. Dogs is absolutely my, um, passion

So, um, they're very important in my life. Oh, that's really lovely to tonight. So my husband is is probably fourth in the pecking order, and my um, three dogs are come

Certainly before him. My life. My dogs are Yeah

Have you got I've got three dogs as well. Have you got three dogs? So So I have three dogs. Yeah

To be honest, if I'm, I'll be careful where I say it, but definitely, it's the dogs first. The the Children. It's really hard

It's hard. Richard, you pick. You know the dogs

Um, You arrive at the home and, you know, it's straight away to the dogs. Your daughter can wait, but it's straight away. The dogs

Absolutely. Two years of being stuck at home in Covid. The dogs were my company

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So before lockdown, I had two dogs, and then, um really, sadly, one died

One died through lockdown. It was absolutely horrific. I was really, really upset

And then the second one and then, um yeah, so we got the second one last year and then the third one this year, but yeah, they're lovely. That sounds like really tough, but yeah. Yeah, very difficult

Yeah. And yeah, anything with the dog is difficult. So I've got a few questions that I'd like to ask you

Absolutely. Ah, yeah. I'm all ready

Well, so, um, thank you for sharing a bit about yourself. I was wondering if you could share with me. What impact did the Covid pandemic and lockdowns have on your life as a deaf person? It was extremely difficult through covid and through lockdown

So before I used to live in New York, I lived in my partner in New York. And then when things went into lockdown and when lockdown started, he said, Oh, it's best you go back home to Doncaster to, um, look after your mother and it's the same. He went to, um, his mother, my partner's death

And so I thought, you know, for two weeks, three weeks, I thought, you know, OK. And yet everything is still the same now, so it's been extremely difficult. It was a difficult life decision

And then everybody knows, You know, in the first year everybody stayed in for the first year, people didn't go out at all. There's just things online, even online shopping. So I didn't go out at all

It was extremely difficult. And then the following year, with 2021 so before that back, going back to 2020 I was ended up in hospital and I had to have, um, an operation and I was in there for three weeks, but it wasn't linked to covid at all. It's just, um, linked to the knee and linked to, um, my knee keep kept locking it you couldn't bend at all, couldn't bend my knee

I couldn't straighten it. So I had to have an operation. And going there through covid was horrific because the hospital experience was awful with the masks

I kept saying to them, I'm profoundly deaf and everyone was wearing masks. They wouldn't and say Please, please, please, can you lower the mask when you're talking to me? But the staff wouldn't do that, and I could not tell what they're saying at all. So I had a lot of difficulties through covid with, um, barriers of not being able to understand what people are saying

They'd constantly be wearing the masks. You'd ask them to take it off, and they wouldn't. And I just didn't understand what they were saying

So, for example, with medication, So I was having to take some medication. Um, I can't say the name of the medication. I have no idea what it was

And, um so even like being able to pronounce, I might be able to recognise the name. But being able to pronounce the name of the medication is very difficult, and people would find that quite annoying. Staff members would find it annoying

Um, so that was really difficult with the actual medication. And then, you know, I should really have been in six weeks or seven weeks, but in the third week they said, Oh, um, they think it's best if you go home because, oh, it's safer for you going home. And so they finally at the end wrote a note to me, and it's there going, Why didn't you write information down at the start? Um, so there's they're saying, Oh, there's a lady over there and, um, somebody in the wards tested positive so they'd had to write that down to tell me about Covid

Um, so it was on the same ward. Yes, we were far, but not that far. So, um, they'd written down to me to tell me to go home, so I then stayed

I went home, but my mother's vulnerable because of her age and other health conditions. So I ended up just staying in the bedroom and locked away. And I ended up being, um, positive for covid from the hospital

And I was extremely poorly with it, and it was really, really difficult. I had to have an The ambulance came because I have asthma as well. So the ambulance ended up coming and again I was taken back to hospital

And then you've got all the issues again with masks and not being able to understand people and communicate. I just felt worn out. Absolutely

It's like it's like almost being just burnt out because the drain of not being able to, um, communicate and it's just you just felt What are people saying? And you're using all your energy trying to understand And, you know, you'd say people I'm deaf, but people wouldn't think to communicate in a different way. So there were so many problems through covid with it, and then when I went back, I ended up going to hospital to and from hospital regularly through, um, lockdowns for different health reasons, and I ended up going several times and again it was linked. A lot of it was linked to Covid, And every time I went back, it was horrific

You got you got this feeling of Oh, I really don't want to go because you've got the masks and you've got the barriers of communication and then people trying to talk to you and you just had no idea what they were saying. You just didn't understand anything that they were saying. So you just thought whatever, um, couldn't do anything

And you just ended up just like almost nodding along as if pretending you understood. Whereas you had no idea what was going on. And it still really frustrates me with what happened with the communication and the masks and people not willing to lower them, what could have been done differently? So what they should have done, they should have had better awareness

So for any deaf people, not just myself, but for every other deaf person or people with hard of hearing, they need to think, Oh, that person's deaf. It might be that, um, they should have provided sign video so you could have an interpreter on a screen that would have been one option for BSL users. Or they could have written some notes, Um, some of the doctors and nurses again

When they're right, you can't tell what they've said, so they need to be really clear with the writing. They needed white paper or easy, easy writing or even a whiteboard where you could, like, rub off a message and just write back. But it's just little things that, um, would have made massive changes that they could have done

Can I ask you, did these things exist before covid in in the wider world? Do you mean the sign? Video and stuff? And I mean people not trying to commute be accessible, so it's always been the same, and so it's always been the same. But before covid, you have problems with lip reading and you try and lip read people and then masks exaggerated and exacerbated the issues because, um, obviously you then had no access to people's lip patterns. So before I'd say they didn't, I think it got worse during covid

But in terms of actually people being accessible and trying things, um, I'd say it was similar. Um, people might maybe have come closer prior to covid and tried and like, um, wrote something or showed you something. But then through covid, people wouldn't do that

So I think it definitely made it worse. But the accessibility wise was the same. Thanks for sharing that

So, um, you clearly work? You are extremely busy. You made some really, um, challenging choices about going home to look after your loved one. How did you know what to do? And how did you organise your life as a deaf person during the pandemic? So I'd be doing zoom every week with friends and I'd try to have a bit of a, um, social try and think positively, um, and have a bit of an importance

It's really important to laugh throughout. So for myself, I'd organise like quizzes with my friends. And so a lot of my deaf friends have got a small group of really good deaf friends, and we try and think of different things to do and trying to keep the brain active, not just sitting there and thinking only about work and being online

We needed to try and engage and have a bit of fun and a bit of a a bit of a laugh. So we regularly did that. It was quite tiring

Um, and the eyes concentrating on the screen can be really difficult. So, for example, if you think there's six deaf people on the screen and they're all standing at the same time, it can be really difficult trying to, um, grasp on people not to talk over each other so it can be really tiring and call it, um, eye gaze. That can be really difficult

Um, but then, yeah. So we did a lot of zoom calls and going home and looking after your mom. Like, did you think that the information out there was useful information? Was it accessible? So, like, I access a lot of information on the on the Internet? Not at all

Not at all. Absolutely not. No

So it was a lot of frustration because on the BBC news and, uh, Channel One, there's no interpreter. You had to go on to, uh, chat a different channel, but not to deaf. People had access to that channel, and it depended on what TV you had and what channels you had

They should have provided it, uh, all the time. So all the updates, they should have had an interpreter, and they should have been really clear with the information. There was a lot of waffle in there

There was a lot of confusing information that's conflicting. You really just needed simple bullet points, Um, for not just for deaf people, but for all the hearing people. For them to try and understand what was going on it for me, it was really difficult trying to actually understand it

I'd ask my mother and say I'd ask my daughter and say What are they saying on the news now? And they're like, Oh, we don't know. And it was stressing, My it was stressing my daughter out, and they were saying and my my mother was, um with her being at risk and she was seen as quite high risk and vulnerable, it meant she got different information. So there's a lot of frustration over not being able to access the information because both my mother and daughter were hearing and then for me, accessing the information, it was totally different

And then you have to rely on other people, and it's just this constant. What are you allowed to do? What are you not allowed to do this? You're not allowed to do that. And you'd be thinking, I don't You know what? So it was a real It was a real problem for deaf people

Did that surprise you? That it was a problem. So in terms of the information with covid, Yes, it's kind of the same as always, in terms of accessing information. But they were talking well, when they were talking like Freedom Day

I still didn't, um I was still very reserved. I was still very unsure because of what we've been through and having to go to hospital so many times and through covid as well, and then having the operations, Um, I just myself, I just thought I didn't I wasn't in a rush to go out at all. So, um, you know, you don't know who else had it? You don't know

It wasn't such a thing as Freedom Day. And for me, it's even. I continued being careful with the distancing, So it took me a long time to go back to places where it was busier and it took me a long time before actually being able and comfortable to go out

Um, I'd say in terms of accessing information, it's exactly the same as always. And it was extremely confusing because then they're saying, You can do this, then you can't do this. Then they change your mind

Oh, you can do this And then then you can't do that and it's like, Well, which is it? And which is the right information? There's nothing that's clear about it at all. Why do you think that approach has been one that's been applied across the board? What do you mean, Sorry. So do you think there's a reason why deaf people don't get accessible information? Do you think there's a reason why some of those decisions were made around not having interpreters? Well, for example, in Scotland, they provided an interpreter

The Scottish Covid News is very, very clear. What's going on in Scotland? They regularly had interpreters there again in Wales. They had very, very clear, um, interpreter there for every meeting and every news update

There was nothing in England. So why was that? So the problem was, I think so. For example, if it's all day on the news, it would be extremely expensive travel if it's all day on the news

Um, and you can't just have one interpreter for all day, so you'd need lots of interpreters. Um, throughout the day, if you were doing regular updates and the other thing, it might be that deaf people understood the interpreters. But some deaf, um, it depends on their language levels that could really that could really vary

So, um, some people might not understand the interpreter even if they have an interpreter on BBC, because the interpreter is impossible for them to match their register to every deaf person in the country. So how could you improve? That would be the question. Um mm

It's hard. But luckily for myself, I could watch and I could understand. But a lot of other the deaf

There's a lot of barriers in terms of them understanding and accessing the English information and depending on the English levels. And I think there's one deaf. Um, there's a wonderful deaf person, and I really struggled to understand when they were and, um so I was facetiming and I had to really explain to them and say, Right, you have to be careful

You've got to do this because they hadn't understand they didn't have the English skills to be able to watch and use and understand. So I had to watch what was happening. And then I had to, um, tell and relay the information to them

So I think there's two different ways of things that are happening. It depends on people's signing skills and also the English skills. Um, and I think, really, in a really ideal world, you'd have you'd have the interpreter and then you'd also have the written English, um, together

And that would have been the most accessible way. So you touched on cost. Do you think some of the decisions that are made around access are based on cost rather than electronic? Enable people to live good lives? I don't know

In terms of the political aspect, I don't I don't know. Um, I it's just extremely frustrating, so I'm not sure what the reasons would be. A lot of deaf people

Oh, they'd say there's where the interpreter and is there. Um, so I'm not sure if you heard of the lady who was deaf and she created the campaign saying, Where's the interpreter? And she took the government to court saying, Where's the interpreter? It became a hashtag um, saying Where's the interpreter. And really, it should have been

Well, you know, I think everybody signed online to, um there's a petition for the government. It shouldn't have just been one person. It should have been the whole deaf community

Um, and it should have been something like that, because because how can you, um, access its access for everybody? So the older generations of deaf people they didn't have, you know, they don't have access to the computers, necessarily. They might struggle with zoom or and then struggle trying to get the information. So it's making sure it's not just one individual that should have taken, um, the politicians to court

It should have been the community as a whole, Really interesting points. And I was wondering you started to talk about this. So what does you know? There's lots of talk about a post pandemic world or, you know, we're out of covid

What does that feeling look like to you as a deaf person? I feel it's still out there. Um, I don't think it's disappeared. And for myself, I'd say I was extremely anxious when I was going back, and when particularly going back to campus, I was extremely anxious

Um, I've got used to it now, but it's still I think Covid is still out there. How many people actually have the vaccines or how many don't have the vaccines? You never know. And still, for me, I don't want to get too close to people

But if you walk in, for example, near town, Um, I'm very mindful of the people around me. So I haven't been to town for such a long time because I think I've only been once because it's still that mindset of you're not really sure what's going on and what people are like. So my view is, um, the masks would are useful for protection, but lots of people

So, for example, myself who's asthma or anybody who's vulnerable or, um, I just feel like really people who can. I feel it should be wearing masks in a lot of ways because it's much safer. So, for example, when you go in the NHS still, when you go to the hospital, you still have to wear masks, and I think really it should be back for people's safety because at the moment the numbers are really high with Covid It's not just covid, but there's so many other, um, horrible things spreading at the moment, so I'm not sure if the masks will come back

I think people have almost forgotten. It's like people have just gone, um, not bothered. And they've just forgotten and, um, wanting to get back out there

Yeah. Um, you talked about work. So what happened to you? How did you work during covid? Like, how did you, um, do the work that you do? So I absolutely love working from home

It is wonderful working from home. I know. Also, I'm nice to save on petrol because it's quite a commute now

And at the same time, I was looking after my mother, so it was lovely. I absolutely loved working from home, and I love working from home still, um, so, you know, you could go to the toilet, go for coffee. You were able to, um, get a bit of food

It was just so easy. But the students didn't like it, and they had a lot of annoying, uh, annoyance pieces depended on the WiFi. So you then struggled If people started freezing on screen with the technology issues and the WiFi issues

That could really be problematic. And one of the negatives was that was one of the major negatives was the WiFi. But for me, I absolutely love being at home

I just Yeah, I like that aspect of it. I got extra sleeping in the morning. I didn't have to wake up really super duper early to get to work

I could, you know, you could have slippers on. And then, whereas now you've got to get tight shoes, dress and get everything on that's not so comfortable and set off to work. And also I was teaching when I was in hospital

I was able to have that flexibility so I could get the laptop up because there's no sound and because there's no sound on the computer, I could sit in the ward and I could teach. So and the nurses accepted that I would work and work accepted it, And that's how I continued with the teaching. So even though I was in hospital for those three weeks, I was still able to teach and it's quite funny and the students accepted and the students loved it, and you'd just say, Oh, sorry, I've got my hospital dinner

That's just arriving. I've got my pudding, and I'll be showing them the pudding. Um, but you were able to have that flexibility, and you could have a bit of a joke with the students about that

And then after after I got covid, um, I stopped teaching. I had to stop teaching because I was too poorly. So I had to stop

Um, for two months. Once, I'd caught covid and had to get somebody to come in and cover me because, um, I was too poorly. I was too ill

And I had no energy. I wasn't able to do anything, but, um, yeah, I actually really enjoyed working from home. Yeah, a lot of people have talked about how working from home has been more accessible for them

Hm. I think there's more access, but it's more also, you could have a bit more, um, relationship with, um, your manager, because they had to sit and do a call with you. So before they'd almost pass you in the corridor and you wouldn't have time, whereas, um, the teams in the chat box, you were able to actually put things in and you didn't necessarily know and and people said, Oh, should we please remove the chat box? And I said, No, no, no, because I want to know what's going on

I want to know what people are talking about. And you got those bits of incidental information that you wouldn't necessarily get. So I feel I've got more access than before COVID

Cos you were seeing what people are put in the chat. So it was really interesting you were able to suddenly access this whole new world. Oh, so I was wondering if you could share with me

So you talked about the barriers that you had when you were in hospital for, um, your knee problem. Um, And then when you got covid, did you worry that you wouldn't be able to get the support you needed because it just wouldn't be accessible? Or did you? What was going on for you at the time? I suppose you got used to it over the years. It's not just covid

It's like people saying, Oh, I'm sorry. We've not booked an interpreter and you almost get used to it. You know that they won't provide it

You know that you're not gonna get the service that you should. So I been to hospital for something, and it's always you always end up like nodding the head, and people think that you understand? Um And then, actually, when you come home, you're thinking Hm. I don't know what was said to me

And then later, when I went back for another appointment, and, um and they say, Are you ready? And I'm, like, ready for what? And I had no idea. They said I told you before, and I I had no idea. A lot of the time I would have nodded my head because you feel you have to, but you hadn't actually understood what they'd said to you

So, for example, then when they talk to you, it would have been so much easier if they then sent an email or, um jotted down some notes explaining the key points to you to make sure you'd understood. And particularly if there's no interpreter. Obviously, um, but they wouldn't accept doing anything like that

They wouldn't do an email because they'd say our confidentiality, and it's like, Oh, how can deaf people get access if you weren't, You know, you won't take mobile phones or you won't take, um, email addresses. What can you do? And even now, they still won, um, accept mobiles as as a form of, um, that because of confidentiality. And you just think Oh, come on

So I I feel like for years and years, you've always had this issue, so you just got accepted to it. So maybe in 30 years time, things will be better. And then people will be watching them go

Oh, I should have done that back in my time. Maybe. You know, maybe in 30 years, things will have improved

Who knows? Let's hope so. Yeah. Can I ask you, um, what do you think? As a society, we have learned anything as a result of covid and the pandemic

Think they've forgotten everything I think they forgot. I think people just forgotten. So for myself, I've noticed, For example, when you go to NHS and you see the hand gel and you can see so many times people just walk right past, they don't do it, they don't use it

And it's like, What is that? Um, but people don't use it. I think people have just forgotten and this project is about trying to get the voice of deaf and disabled people heard in or at the covid inquiry level. What would you want? The covid inquiry to know about the experiences of deaf people

Lack of interpreters. Where were the interpreters? And then they should have written down things clearly because you weren't able to access information. If they weren't providing interpreters, there should have been simple

Um, whether it is a video, you can you know the sign. Like you can You can get all these, um, video. Sorry, video in the systems

And, um, you could get that they should have been using them where you literally can bring tablets and you talk into it, and someone signs and you have that live interpreting situation. Um, so they could have done that. Whereas it signed signed lab with an interpreter

They should have had simple information. They should have special masks and that they needed to either remove them or have, um, clear masks so that you could see people. And also don't forget, you know, if somebody says the death, look at the way that you're speaking to them

Look what? Look at the person who's deaf so they can lip read. You don't turn away and speak to them and mumble, because this is what kept happening. So it's not only the masks you need to move, the mask masks down and you need to check on people's notes from the patients

You need to check on the individual person and ask them, you know, know if they're deaf. What what do they need? What's the communication needs? Not just our, um what? Whatever they think is best, you need to ask, What is it that they need and check the notes. And again, it's all about it coming back to politics and it comes back to money

Everything comes back to politics and money and who's paying for it? And that's where all the that's usually where the problem lies is, um, down to politics and the money. So, um, I don't know if this is a leading question, so feel free not to answer it. Do so

Is this also about how we value deaf people in our society? Yeah, there's still a massive SE separation between the hearing and deaf worlds. I don't feel that society fully sees the deaf world. They just almost think, Oh, what is that? And they don't there's they don't have understanding that they think, um, that we're completely different

They don't think that we're equal. It's, I think, a very different society. I think there's definitely a split

Still, definitely. That's just my view. That's just my personal view

And what need What can we do to change that? It's campaigning, campaigning for, um, any disability. It's not just deafness, but it's It's not just I know. For example, in disabled Week, it's It's It's not just one week in the year it needs to be continual that people are regularly reminded about the key points

It's just, I'd say, really having a big campaign through advertising or in schools, you needing to access and, um, education. For them, it might be some basic BSL in school or basic deaf awareness that could happen. And as a child gets older and they'll know not to shout at the deaf person, they know that the little intricate details of, um, deaf edu deaf culture, such as tapping somebody on the shoulder rather than just shouting at them to get someone's attention

So it's just tiny little things that could massively improve, and they make a big difference. And I think really, it just needs to be. The awareness needs to be out there

So if you remember on strictly come dancing, there is Rose on Strictly Come dancing, for example, Rosie Rose rose on strictly come dancing and everyone's then started looking on. The Google searches for BSL were then sky skyrocketed and people demanding for the course. And then, as soon as she's gone off the screen that's disappeared, the interest is gone

So where, you know, where are the people searching now? Just because it's somebody actually being shown in front of other people. So you need it to be seen, you need it to be visible to then get the people to engage with the content that sound. That strikes me as really profound because you've talked about how the lack of access and the lack of inters would clearly mean that people can't be present in society

And then how do we get to a society where everyone has purpose and meaning in place? If that certain people aren't present? Yeah, and is remembering that death is invisible? You can't spot when somebody's deaf and you can only see it if someone's actually signing. So a lot of the time, people have no idea. If you're walking down the street, it's it's invisible

Um, so you know, before there was a billboard and they'd have adverts with billboards all over. And now I feel like even those sorts of things have become less and less so. Even in the bus stop, they'd have something

There used to be something on the bus stop. Um, previously, just a bit of information. Just little tiny things

Um, so as I think it's outside ASDA, they had a screen with, um, somebody signing for customer service, saying customer service will help you and I thought, That's fine. But if deaf people come and they start signing and staff will think What what do we do? They can't help the deaf community, and I also feel like they misuse the advert. So I think that you need to have these simple points of reminding whether it's on a bus stop, whether it's on the side of a billboard or wherever

It is just simple points that need to be keep reminded for society just to reiterate that message home and then to try and improve, um, improve people's awareness in society Really important points. Do you have anything else you wanted to share with me about your experience of the covid pandemic? Just having to think there was something else linked to the NHS. So when I had the operation, it was an emergency operation

So, um, I wasn't in, and I'll just never forget what happened. So there was a lady who was a nurse, and she was like saying calm down or whatever, and And she she took her mask down and she went, Oh, I sign And and I was like, OK, but do you know the medical terminologies? Do you know the medical signs? Do you know the right information or are you gonna sign the wrong information to me? Um, so I know she's trying to help, and I know she's trying to help me, but actually, I needed a proper, fully qualified interpreter to access the information. And it's the same

When I went for the, um boosters or the jabs. Everyone all wore masks and they'd speak at you and again, you know, his name and date of birth or whatever else. And then I'd say, Please, can you take your mask down for me to understand? And every time, every time I went for a booster, I just felt like I've not understood what was being said

And I know that they're all busy. I know. And I really appreciate the staff

Um, and I know the demand on the NHS, but really, they just needed a clear mask, and then I'd be able to li I'd be able to understand what was being said. Um, and I just didn't understand why they weren't using those. It would have been such a simple solution

And I know the clear masks can be a bit of an issue in terms of steam and a bit of reflection. But through covid, you know, you could wear them. Um, so I just didn't understand why people weren't doing that

Such a simple solution. Absolutely. I have no understanding either

Do you have any questions for me? I hope I've covered enough for you. Hm. I think I've covered it enough for you

I'm just trying to make sure I've covered all the points for you. It's just to chat about your experience. So what's interesting now? Hm? So on campus

So, for example, students. Some of my students are still wearing masks, and they are very, um, it's really interesting. So when they're signing, they then take the mask down

It's really bizarre that some of the students and I can't really quite get my head around it, and, you know, well, for them for being brave. But the students are still wearing masks, but it's really interesting because our course is probably the one that they wouldn't. Um, but you just feel like it's it's just really interesting that people are just trying to get on with it

And you still have to be careful, but just not forget that it's still out there. Absolutely. Do you have any questions you wanted to ask me? Um, I've got, uh you've answered all my questions

I don't think so. Ok, I'm gonna stop. No, if I've got anything I can maybe email you Absolutely

Absolutely. So I'm gonna stop the recording there. Um

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