For Al, co-production means trying to bring people together, and trying to kind of construct ideas, plans, to make things better, to have more accessibility. He talks to Isaac about the power dynamics in co-production and how that can impact his mental health. 

To this You should get a notice um that I you called. So first of all, can I get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about what you do in co-production? So, hi, my name's Al Richards. Um, I'm, uh, I identify as being a co-producer. Um, and that basically means, um, usually kind of trying to bring people together, um, and trying to kind of construct ideas and plans, um, to kind of make things better, to have more accessibility, to have, um, regular people, um, You know, like you and I being involved in things like this

Um, but maybe on a slightly kind of more strategic level. Um, so I, I would probably identify with somebody that does this on a more of a strategic level, who is kind of maybe a little bit more of a, a coordinator, um, and somebody that can really kind of help people try and understand what Co-production really is um and how and how to do it right so that we're getting the best out of people. Thanks, Al

Can I ask you that we're exploring what the racialized experience of co-production has been, so how has your experience as a global majority individual been in relation to co-production? I think it's been very interesting because um I think the world outside that we live in actually plays out um in these pockets of co-production, um, you know, they. I think there is a lot of issue around obviously, systemic racism and issues that we've seen around people not being. I don't know how best to say this, but almost like

Not, not just not Respected, but I think There are lots of power and pay issues in regards to us being paid on time, um, issues that kind of are, are part of the general workforce. Um, and I think they play out quite interestingly in co-production circles. Um, because in co-production, it is meant to be that anyone and everyone participates

Yet, when everyone and anyone does want to participate, there's that kind of feeling of well. We're not really gonna get that person, um, because we won't really understand where they're from or, or what it is exactly that they're really kind of talking about. Um, and I, I found it quite interesting because actually, um, I speak very well, um, English, although it's not my first language

Um, and I suppose I sound very articulate, which is another phrase that I absolutely hate. Please don't call me that. Um, you know, I have a certain level of, um, academia when it comes down to co-production, and I'm not talking about just regular kind of go to school academia, but especially around co-production

Um, because I really want people to be involved. And I think that's the essence of the message in my own head. It may sound very simplistic, um, but it works for me

But the issue that I have is, is that, like, unfortunately, a lot of people of colour, um, the system is almost rigged against us doing things, being part of the system, um, trying to change the system. So. Usually, whenever I introduce myself, um, within meetings, I always tell people that I'm a person of colour

I think it's really important because I don't come on camera often. Um, and because I don't come on camera, I want people to feel safe, um, especially around me, to be able to talk about things. Um, and these are things, you know, that you may speak to, to your friends about, um

You know, it may even be uh a culture or background that I'm not familiar with, but actually they'll feel so safe and actually being able to talk to me. But what ends up happening is is that then. I've become one of the sideline people

Um, and I think for me, a layer of having to protect myself is to actually turn the camera off so that I can, I can hear the racism going on around me. I can feel it going on around me, but I don't want people to watch me as I suffer, um, or as I go through what exactly is happening in front of my eyes. Um, so the eye rolling

The kind of the basic, um, cutting me off at sentences, um, talking over me, um, me giving out, uh, a kind of an idea of, you know, maybe this could work, and then somebody coming up with more an improved version, which always ends up sounding a lot better. And surprise, surprise, it's always somebody from, um, you know, the, the global minority, um, that end up speaking this. And I think those circles are quite hard to navigate in because for me, I feel the trauma, um, a lot worse because in my own head, I, I know who I am and I'm so certain, but because I see racism and I experience it, um, in different ways

And I think I know quite a lot about, um, equality, uh, diversity and inclusion. Just because I see it all around me, so I can, I can kind of say this doesn't work, or this isn't working because of a certain discrimination kind of background or discriminatory practise. But I think within co-production circles, it's, it's quite hard, I think, for people to really understand that they need to be very open, um, and psychologically safe

To be able to kind of give their thoughts if co-production is about everyone getting involved, then it actually means every single person, it doesn't mean actually certain people of a certain background. Can I ask you how much, what's the impact that racism's had on your psychological wellbeing, your mental health? Um, Well, I mean, for me, I know that it, um, directly affected my mental health, as in, I wasn't mentally unwell before, um, the constant kind of bullying and discrimination that I got at work. Um, and I, I always use this, um, example, but I don't think, um, I think people are kind of quite taken aback with it

But um because I call racism a a form of violence, a form of assault, um, a form of abuse, um. Basically, I, I akin it normally to to rape. Um, so, you know, you're going to work, you've been abused

And then you carry on going to work with the abuser. And you keep on seeing that same person who has raped you. And you're forced to work with them

And that's exactly what happened to me. And, um, I held out 6 months, um, and then I just became so unwell. Um, the last straw was actually then that, um, The complaint, uh, that I may have been kind of almost dealt with as in, you know, the person and, uh, you know, apologised and said sorry and whatever, but not to my face, um

And then the flip side was that uh then a complaint was raised about me. So I I think. When it comes down to kind of mental health, that that's the only kind of main reason that I've become unwell

And now that I've become unwell because of it, and I've been unwell for over 1314 years now, um, I Feel Racism, um, I feel. Discrimination when, when I'm in a room. Um, and maybe that's a hypervigilant state of mind

Maybe it's always on. Um, maybe I can't see it any other way. Maybe the lens is shifted to a way where I've, I've recognised behaviour and I've recognised, um, certain things that seem to play out very, very minutely, very, very subtly

But I can see it, I can feel it, um. And I think that always keeps me on edge, and I, I think that that is unfortunate because every interaction I have, whether it be um good or bad, I actually have to sleep a lot. I have to sleep a lot now, um

You know, just going from meeting to meeting because it's just so exhausting, um. Being present, having to talk to these people who are. Who are being discriminatory in the way that they're doing things, um, but having to kind of say to myself, I can't fight every battle I've got to be here for the war, so

that is, I think that cost towards mental health on my own. Sounds really difficult and. When I share with people, um, bits about this project, people say, oh well, so how does how does racism show up in co-production spaces? And you like to touch on that

So, like, how have you experienced racism in co-production spaces? Um Well, I think I said, I said earlier about, you know, when I've said something and then somebody's come up with a so-called improvement type version, um, of what it is exactly that I've said that, that has been happening within kind of racist circles for a long time. Um, the stealing of ideas, um, the kind of understanding of. How do I now support people who are visibly on camera, for example, um, because co-production doesn't usually now kind of really happen in a room anymore

It seems to always happen online. Um, you know, people are looking at one another's names, um, they're trying to guess what kind of background people are at, um. It's interesting because actually I, and I think you, you picked up on this, on, on the event day, was that, um, our mutual friend Jackie, um, said my name

Um, and you were quite surprised, and I think people don't really understand that actually, um, what Jackie calls me is my real name. Um, the issue that I have is that people were mispronouncing it so much. And with my name, it was actually um a priest who actually named me

Um, so it wasn't even a parent, it was a priest, and, and I'm a practising Muslim and When you disrespect my name, you disrespect me. And, um, I remember going into a group, and, um, I never told anybody my name. I always, I always gave them my surname, so they all had to call me mister

Um, and then in the end, they just kind of, they made up the name Al, um, and they said, We're gonna call you Al. You look like an owl. And I thought, that's perfect

And I actually stuck with it. And for me, that has lessened because people now can say my name, whether they're very old, whether they're very young, um, whether they're white or any other colour in between. They can all say my name properly and

Although it's not my name. A lot of people know me by it. And I think when you come back to co-production circles in itself

Having that anglicised name, not feeling fully psychologically safe, understanding that you're going to get the same treatment, and you 99% of the time will actually get the same type of treatment. Um, and coming into co-production circles, I, you know, I love co-producing. I really do, and this is not

I'm trying not to try and say very much that is negative about it because I, I really do enjoy it. Um, but I, I think the way that maybe we're doing it, um, and having to listen to people's kind of opinions and. I always know that my opinion is kind of out there

Um, I'll talk about things like colonialism. Um, I will talk about things and, and those things are really relevant to the plans that we make today, because they're actually framing our thinking and framing the way that we're actually doing co-production. So when you're, when you're, for example, and, you know, I, I'm going to use the example of co-production collective

Um, you know, when we're using jam boards and we're using these trees and we're using kind of like we want to really hear your thoughts. Um I think that actually, first of all, we don't get enough time to think about those thoughts, um, because I need extra time to actually frame them. Um, I have to always go usually 2 or, or very last

Um, I usually wait until it's at the last minute and then I can see the door about to close and I go, I've got a quick thought, and I'll quickly just say it. Because actually, by the time after I've said it, I don't need to then hear other people kind of go. Well, I disagree with that, or that doesn't really work for me

Um, I just want to say it, and whoever's typing will say, Thank you. I'm just trying to type it. OK, we're gonna go back into the room

Bye. And we're all just gone. I, I don't want to hear the, the kind of like, oh, but where does that happen? And why, why are you bringing this into it? Why are you talking about race? And I'm thinking, well, actually, when you think about people that are the most unequal in society, and when you're talking about inequalities, that, that is us

Um, so why am I, why should I not talk about it? Why should I not highlight it? Why should I pretend that everything's rosy? And I think this is where co-production in itself is, is a place that stops us from talking about it. Um, there was a woman that I spoke to, I believe, in The meeting Um, when, when I had the meeting with yourself and, and with others. And, um, it was a lady, and I'm sure you remember, but I, I can't remember her name, unfortunately, for the life of me

I don't remember what she looks like. But she said, um, she spoke about, you know, unless we talk about colonialism and unless we talk about these types of, um, subjects, we won't really get anywhere. And I was very fortunate in that I actually private messaged her and I said, thank you so much

Because I just thought, I, I just wasn't ready to kind of go down that path yet because, you know, whenever we have any of these meetings, although we're told they're safe spaces, they really aren't. They're very, very difficult spaces because I look at everybody in the room, I'm like, OK. There's quite a lot of people who look like they are white, and I don't know what their background is

So I don't know if it's safe enough for me to say something or or not. Um, if I say something, what will then happen? Because I've seen meetings, especially within co-production collective derailed because of white tears, because of kind of people hugging the limelight and, and trying to stop. Conversation from really happening um and from us getting to I think some form of solution or resolution for not just how we're going to work together but actually maybe for some of the problems outside of co-production

So I think it's really difficult to be fully psychologically safe, um, because you know that you're. Your frame, your lens is towards um a way of working that is equitable, but actually you have people that have no real understanding and don't ever. Get, you know, the so-called biases or they say it's an unconscious bias, for example, when really I, I just don't know, it isn't unconscious bias

You, you know exactly what you're doing. You're not stupid. Um, you know exactly how this is playing out

I'm happy to explain that to you, but you need to actually understand what I'm trying to tell you rather than actually rejecting it. And I think this is the. This is the fear around co-production that actually we won't be understood and um people don't want to get us and

Actually, when you look at the jam board. After I've said what I've said. I think it's quite interesting depending on who's the one who actually types what it is that is being said

Because those words kind of almost disappear, and you look at them and you think, I never really actually said that. But actually my my words have been twisted in some way. And I'd love it if somebody came back and said, oh, could you just let me know if everything that I've written here is correct? Did I get it right? Um, because 9 times out of 10 they, they kind of haven't, they, they've just given some of the buzzwords, but they're not given the context behind it

And I think that can be quite inflammatory, um, and make people just think, oh, and it can lead to those kind of talks of what's this about racism, let's stop talking about it. But I think it's a conversation that we really actually need to have. We need to have time to discuss it

We need kind of more of a face to face because. I can't see when people are bored or sick to death of what I'm saying. Um, I can't tell when people are just wanting to leave or they're just, you know, twitching

Um, I need to see their whole body language. I need to experience that where I'm at is a safe space, where I'm at is not a place where. I'm going to feel really exposed

I want it to be a place of solidarity. I want it to be a place of. Healing for all of us, listening to stories

And yes, we can all be affected by what we hear, um, like I was um at the event. Um, but what I found, I think. More harrowing apart from the story, and that was quite harrowing in itself, was actually the reactions of people

I, I look at the entire room, everybody's looking at one person and I'm looking at the entire room to see. How's the feeling shifted in this room? Is there a solidarity feeling? Is there a psychological safe feeling? And I didn't feel it. I felt a lot of people kind of looking, um, I think people, and it's kind of, and I'm gonna be quite explicit here, so I hope you don't misunderstand

But I think people. Who are of real colour, um. People who Understood the story

People who like myself actually looked and took it in and nodded because although it wasn't our experience, we, we recognise it. I think there were only a few of us in that room. That could really experience it on that level

And I think this is where then for me, co-production almost fails because you have all these other people who are there. And in their head they're still trying to fathom. How something like that actually happens, when really it does happen, but people are still trying to figure it out, and if you're trying to figure something out

Then for me, I'm thinking. Are you, are you? Like, are you somebody that actually goes through what we go through? Or are you people that are just here to watch this form of trauma porn and and kind of sit there and then leave the room at the end and say. Oh no, that didn't really happen, or how could that happen or that's never happened to me

I, I don't question anybody's story or anybody's experience of what they go through. Who am I to do that? Um, I can't. Your experience is your, your own

You may talk to me about it. I'll, I'll probably understand it in, you know, up to about 90, 95%. But you're in that experience, so only you can narrate it to me

Only you can tell me how you exactly felt, but I can help be in your shoes and try and understand it as well. But I'm, I wasn't there. Um, and maybe my reaction might be slightly different

I don't know. But maybe it would be the exact same. Um, but when you have people in a room who are not ready to listen to that, when you have people in a room who are just kind of sat there and You know, there was no Oh my god, you know, how, how did you feel about that? No, nobody came up to the lady in question to even ask

How she was and. I was quite lucky because I've sat with with an Asian woman who I believe you know quite well, um, and when, when she spoke to me about in between of course speaking about her husband not being there. Um, Both of us were in solidarity at that very moment, we were both holding one another up

And trying to, trying to carry on with having, having a bit of a talk um and looking at people's reactions. But I, I watched how. The lady who had her story was just kind of

She was just sat there and I just thought. How, how, you know, how do any of us approach her. But why the people who are here that have quite easily just gotten up and

Carried on with their, with the rest of the event or the rest of the day, how are they managing to just kind of do that when, when people like myself and other people who have. Kind of experience that on some level, in some way, shape or form, how do we then end up consoling one another. To say, it's OK, I've got your back

I get it. This is, you know, this is really what we've heard and this is really what it is that's happened, because we don't get it. And I think in those co-production spaces, that is what is really apparent that I think when people are

Hurt that maybe we don't, we don't show that compassion, but we as people of colour. are are reliving the trauma again. In some way, shape or form, it may not be exactly the same, but it will be on on some related way

And I think this is where then it it kind of all goes wrong. Can I ask you about? Some of the pushback that we get in relation to raising the historical context of, Um, our experiences, so you've done co-production for a long time, um, we've spoken up for psychological safety, we talked about stories, what. What is it that happens, that why are we not talking about the historical context of race, um, racism, imperialism in a co-production space? I don't think anybody's ready for the conversation

And it, and it's quite interesting because, um, you know, I want to kind of bring it fast forward to, to kind of this, this, um. You know, this genocide that obviously is taking place in Gaza. Um, and listening to, um, You know, Israel say, this is our land

Um, we used to live here 2000 years ago. And, and how you notice how everybody says we should never forget, you know, the Holocaust, for example. Um, never forget, and it should never ever happen to anyone ever again

And we're watching it live on screen all the time and people are kind of going. You know, I, I akin the Palestinian people to people of colour, and I uh akin Israel to white people. And that their hurt matters that when they talk about things that are from the past, it's really important

You know, um, September 11th, it seems to be a so-called global event. Um, in Afghanistan, it's happening every day. In Yemen, in Congo, in Sudan, in Libya, in all these other countries, nobody gives a damn, you know, the buildings just fall, they just fall

And That's OK. That's OK. I, I think for me

I, my understanding is is that white pain matters more. It's more generally, it seems to be generally more understood, um, and it seems to be more relatable. Um, and I think this is the pushback that we get

People don't want to hear it because they're like, oh. You're, you know, you're telling us about that um. That all of this stuff happened, we'll get over it, get over it

Um, we can't because actually it's in the fabric of our DNA. Um You know, there's a reason why, you know, some of us have got mental health problems. Um, and I can tell you something, it, it ain't just due to, you know, us going through some crap in this life

You know, we're more prone to it. You know, diabetes is is always my favourite illness because actually, um, you're more prone to it if you're from the South Asian diaspora. Um, you know, why is that? Why, why is it exactly? You know, why is it in this country, there seems to be a mental health epidemic

All of our kids are becoming unwell. When I go to the mosque, we talk about mental health or lack of mental health. And I sit there and I think to myself, our kids are more prone to it in this country

But if I went back to Saudi, if I went back to India, they're less likely to have all of these things. Why is it? It's because we have been transported to a different world and we live in this world, which is the only world that we know as children or grandchildren or great grandchildren of migrants, um, and we can't move back. You know, you, you hear so much about

You know, that actually we should respect everyone or be kind. To people and, and please be aware when I say be kind. Please be aware of exactly what that means, which is, it means being first of all, very selective

Um, and secondly, that be kind. Is only for white people. It's not for us

It's selectively used and weaponized against people of colour and people who are so called different according to the heteronormative kind of white world, um, that we, that we kind of live in. So, I think, you know, white people unfortunately are not. Able to be compassionate

I think when we look at the NHS it's clearly demonstrated because they have a quite clear issue with being compassionate towards people. I, I think it's just deficit in white people because they are the global minority and they need to make sure that they constantly. You know, divide and rule us, and this is the only way that they can actually do it

That's why nobody seems to be ready for us, a, a conversation around it. Because as soon as a white person says, oh, I've had enough of this, it's like the whole room comes to a halt. You know, there's no kind of like, well, there's the door, bye bye

You know, um And we as people of colour, I think we rely too much on whiteness. Um, we live in white houses. We wear white clothes, we partake in white services

All of this stuff is whiteness. It's everywhere. And I think on some level, we're all complicit

We're all complicit with the places that we're in, because actually we've all had to conform to be somebody we're not to enter the workforce. And quite rightly, unfortunately, you know, when I speak to a lot of people, I go, well, You're dependent on your mortgage, aren't you, for this, this job's to pay, you know, you, how are you gonna pay your mortgage if you lose this job, so you've got to keep silent, don't you? Um. That's complicity

That is, that is you doing that. But the problem is, is that all of us have not got it into our heads as people of colour that we need to rise up and that we need to actually say, enough is enough. Because, you know, if you, if you took every person of colour out of the NHS, it would, it would fall down flat

Everybody knows this. Everybody knows this. But because of the fear of us losing our own homes, we're too scared to actually do anything

So we're upholding that whiteness, we're upholding that white supremacy. We're upholding all of this stuff, even though we think that, you know, we're trying to fight against it. You know, we're, we're using, we're using all of this technology to do all of this stuff

And although people say, oh, technology is for everyone, actually when we think about Africa, when we think about kind of other countries that are maybe viewed as less developed. Um, they don't have access like we do. You know, everybody still has to go out and work

There's no online working in, in these other countries. They have to actually physically go out and do their job. Um, you know, ideally, um, Isaac, I suppose for me and you, it would have been better if both of us had been able to meet, um, if both of us would have been able to have really, I think, held hands

Um, and just felt, you know, not, not even needed to say very many words but really felt the energy. Um, and I think this would have been a way of actually honouring our ancestors, honouring our backgrounds, um, and doing this interview in, in a very different way to the way it was, um, been done now, because the way we're doing now, although it's for convenience, is a form of whiteness. So we're, we're kind of doing all of this stuff

You, you can't be somebody that talks about this and then benefits from that. We have to try and understand where we're benefiting from whiteness and how it is that we can help challenge some of that. You know, when I, when I see you and, you know, like for today, you've, you've got a lovely top on

Now. That top is not a distinctly British white kind of top, and you don't see very many people on the street walking with it. But actually people who are unashamed of who they are, will, will bear what it is that they want to wear, and they will walk out the house and they will do all of the things that they need to do in that clothing because it's their identity and it's a part of them

And in some way, it's also, um, you know, a two finger salute to, to white people to say, screw you. This is me. And, you know, whether you accept it or not, I don't care, but I accept myself and that's all I need

So I think when we are doing this, I think, you know, some of those pushbacks are that it's those kind of quiet ways of people changing the tone of their voice when they're speaking to us. You know, whenever I speak about racism, I always get the kind of the pity, oh, that's that, I, I'm so sorry about that. I don't want your apologies

I want you to bloody do something about it. That's not gonna help me. And you portraying me as a victim

Versus actually somebody who has, who, you know, I, I don't even say this, people always say, oh, you've got such courage, you know, oh it's so nice. Um, no, I'm just speaking the truth. And if that's courageous, then, wow, I'm courageous, but actually, I'm not courageous

I'm just telling it how it is. You know, you guys living in your deluded, you know, castles, um, in, in kind of loving your whiteness, it, it's you that I feel sad for. It's you that I should feel pity for

Um, but I, I think this is the problem, you know, you have white people. That have gone into different lands and the perfect example for me is not even going to. Places like Africa and India, it's actually going to places like Spain, you know

Everybody loves going to Spain, don't they? All the white people love going to Benidorm. They love going to kind of all of these kind of countries where actually, what, what's interesting, and I don't know if you've ever been there and I wouldn't, is that when you go to these countries, they all speak English. Oh wow! So they've gone to Spain

For a holiday, they're buying property, they're doing all of this stuff. And they won't speak a single bit of the lingo. They want to speak English

So now you've got vast waves of Spain actually just pure English. Now, then you fly back here. And you look at all the rhetoric around people who are assimilating and being white

You know, one activity that I remember doing with, um, Hamid, who was also on the video, um, and who I know really well, um, he, he had to do this activity with all of us, and I can't remember whether I told you, but I'll repeat it anyway with the video. And he said to me, he said to all of us in the room, he said, Oh, I really want to talk to all of you about hard to reach communities. Um, could you, um, all get into a group and tell me, um, who are those hard to reach communities? And um I went into my group and everybody said, you know, we had Nepalese people, um we had uh gipsies, um

And then they came up to me and I said white people. And they said, what? Sorry, and this woman actually looked at me like perplexed. She said, what? We're hard to reach, and I said, um, yeah, you are actually, she said

What? That's like what? I, I don't get it. And I went, oh well let me explain it to you. So I said, so basically what it is is I'm looking for a white friend

And, um, I really want a white friend. Uh, but the problem is that, you know, whenever you guys say, oh, why don't you come up to my home, you're all drinking alcohol now, because of my religion, I don't drink alcohol, and the smell of it really makes me wanna vomit. So I can't really come into your homes

Um, oh, you want to meet us publicly, why don't we go down to a pub? So it's more alcohol. So I, I can't do that. Um, you know, why, why don't we just kind of meet without, without alcohol kind of fueling your evening

Um, you know, I, I feel as though you're hard to reach, and I said, simply for the fact is, first of all, you make it very inhospitable for people like myself, um, to be your friend. Secondly, you know, what's good is that, you know, I've come over to this country. I've learned your language

I live in one of your types of homes. Um, I'm already in this country. Why don't you want to be my friend? You know? Um, but you want me to conform even more

And I've already conformed a lot. I've made a lot of sacrifices. I don't speak my language anymore

I speak yours. I live in your home. You don't need to go abroad to find a friend

I'm that person. But you still don't want to be my friend. Why not? And that's because you are hard to reach

I'm not, and. At the end of the activity. All we got was, I think Hamid was like, oh God, I love what you've just done there after you've you've flipped it all around

And I said, that's exactly what I needed to do, because actually, these white people are hard to reach. Whenever you talk to them about racism, about anything to do. That's outside of their white comfort zone of of being in power

You immediately come against this force. And I think those are hard to reach. So I, I think when we talk about these so-called communities that are hard to reach, I think it's the white people that are hard to reach because they don't wanna change

They don't wanna make any allowances for people like ourselves. And, you know, when one person's pain is worth more than somebody else's pain, you know, we're we're seeing people. You know, being massacred on, on a genocidal scale

We're looking at pictures of people being put into, um, plastic freezer bags to say that that's a person. Like, just imagine being a parent and actually, or, or having a, a sibling or being a child of somebody that's in a carrier bag. Like that's, that's your, that's your person

That, that's your blood, that's your flesh in there. And that's how they've been buried. Now if white people

Interestingly can look at the world like that and not feel a single thing. Because they haven't. Then how the hell do we ever talk to white people about this? And why is it that when we look at things like the Holocaust, the Holocaust for Jewish people

That that is something that everybody seems to like, oh my God, never again. This should never ever happen again. But we're seeing it happen to people who've got more melanin in their skin, and that's OK

So, yeah, I, I, I just think that co-production. People I don't think are ready for that conversation, um, because it's too uncomfortable. And what, what can they say apart from sorry? And that's not what I want to hear

I don't wanna hear sorry. I want to hear, OK, how are we gonna make this better? How are we gonna move forward from this? What are we gonna do to try and help support you so that you are, you know, of equitable status. Within our organisation, how are we going to do that where we're not going to stop you from speaking? How is it that we're not, you know, going to steal your ideas? What, what things can we put in place to make sure that you're respected as a person? And let's not conflate that because you've got a mental illness, that actually some of that is mental illness

It's not really real. So profound and I, I just wanted to. Yeah, I, I think

The stuff around the Holocaust and the stuff around the genocide, and the conflict in Israel is very pressing um. And I know that you're someone that's against all forms of oppression. I just wonder If we're not ready, like, how do we ever make a where, where would you tell us to start? Like you're an expert in co-production, where, where, where can we start, Al, cos uh it's so big

I think, I think actually we need to start with the organisations. Um, and I think, you know, I, I think we're talking about trying to, for example, let's make our production collective better. OK

Well, do you know what UCL is doing to people um who are protesting? Do you know that UCL takes money from Israel? You know, do you know any of this stuff beforehand? So the organisation that we're talking about, although we see it as as somewhere that we should be thriving in. You know, unintentionally, I suppose is the word I should use. Is is helping massacre of people

So, if they're already doing that, How do we help support those systems? To not be reliant on things like that, you know, how do you explain to them, because actually the killing of thousands and thousands of people isn't enough. You know, it, it rarely. You know, delivers any kind of drop of anything because as we've said earlier, white people don't have compassion

So why we, why are we pleading with them to do all of this stuff? I think we need to be very strategic. I think we need to think about how we first of all, you know. First of all, don't accept money, um, from Israel

Um, how, secondly, we in co-production can actually look at the way that we're being affiliated with people, because people won't work with us if we're affiliated to, to genocidal crazy men, basically. Um, that's going to take a knock on, on anything that we do. Um, I think thirdly, we also need to look at being more sustainable

So that we can actually create our own ways of working. Um, 4th, I'd also say that, you know, looking at co-production collective, um, although I see people that are genuinely nice, I also have I also see people that don't know anything about racism, um, or who I don't feel as though I have the necessary skills to be able to. Discuss racism, you know

You have, you know, I'm going to say something here, so it's and it's not gonna come out nice because I'm trying to make it come out nice, but it's not. You know, Nick is has got a partner of colour. Um, you know, you've got, you've got George who doesn't really truly kind of understand how kind of racism really plays out

Um, you've got Christina who It is very much um kind of slightly away from the issue and trying to understand it and trying to grasp it. Um, you know, you don't have real people to experience it. You don't have real people, you know, they get pushed back for other reasons, maybe because of gender more than anything else

But Are they really people that Can really talk to us about this, you know, can they, can they learn? And then when they're learning, actually. practise what they preach. And I'm not really seeing that

I'm, I'm seeing some of it from Nick. And I'm seeing that she's really trying, and I think I've had big conversations with her about her child, you know, because obviously her child is going to also get some of this lovely hate that we all get. Um, and what is the responsibility towards herself protecting her child and, and any children moving forward? And I think these are the things that people don't think about

And I think for us, we need to be thinking about things like that. We need to be thinking about who's leading us. We need to think about how do we help these systems by being more strategic

Um, I'm taking more of a business-like type attitude to reform and make change because compassion ain't working. There isn't, there is none of that. Um, you know, we think that, you know, white people are so compassionate

That's why we keep on talking to them about, you know, people being killed and slavery. They're not compassionate. They don't wanna know

They really don't. And I, and I think that we're holding on to something that, yes, is very important and very topical for us today. But I think unless we start being very strategic and being united in the way that we work together

I don't think we're gonna really get anywhere. And I think until we have those conversations with ourselves, I think, you know, if you were to convene a meeting for only people of colour or only people that really got it, and I mean really got it, because there are people that I've met that are people of colour that don't get it at all. Um, and I'm not having them in a meeting

I really won't, because if you're upholding white patriarchy and supremacy in front of me, I don't want to hear it. Um, and it's even worse when it's from a person of colour. So it'd be nice if we, if we all got together and really thought about strategically

What does UCL first of all, for example, look like? You know, what are the demographics? How do we make them better? How do we try and make sure that people are being their genuine authentic selves and they're bringing themselves to work. Um, so that means their culture, that means their background, you know, even, even, for example, in regards to like the event that we met at. Now, the food was fantastic

I really enjoyed it. But I usually eat with my hands. And eating with utensils is kind of a bit tricky

Um, And I just, I didn't feel able that I could eat with my hands. At the events Um, and it's small things like that, you know, there are things that they sound small. But they're quite difficult because you're trying to like, you know, you look stupid because you're trying to use a fork and you're like, I mean, you use this and how, how do I scoop the rice? Like, how does that work? It was just, you know, I mean, you might as well give me, um, those kind of, uh, chopsticks to have just said, just take one rice scoop at a time

It was just simple little things like that that I think really then, you know, make people kind of think, oh. How safe do I feel? And have I also been given permission, you know, I, I'm always looking to you, I suppose, no, no pressure to almost give us permission to or or somebody to say, feel free, you know, we've got stuff there if you want to eat with your hands, if you wanna eat, you know, whatever, feel free. Um, considering it was for a, a lot of different types of people, I just thought that for me was just like, oh God, I, I couldn't really fill myself up because I didn't feel able

I had to kind of get a spoon and, and scoop up as quickly as I could and eat as much as fast as I could just so that I could feel full, rather than really wholesome. It's really funny you say that because that message was conveyed within the team. And when, cause I sat in a particular place on the table, and I was eating with my hands, and there was other people eating with their hands, but then they were off the spoons because that message hasn't been conveyed beyond that, if that makes sense

So it was kind of, it felt like a bit of shaming of people, like, Oh, here's some cutlery. Do you know? And, and that is. An act of aggression, isn't it? It's and a microaggression that makes you feel very much like, I, I remember eating my hands, and there was humour, and it was me, and it was far as I'm like, and I, I actually felt people thought we were being a bit dirty, actually

Um, so yeah, really important points about, you know, modelling. Um, so I know we're coming to time. I would love to come back and talk to you because I don't feel like

We haven't finished. We've just scratched the scratching the surface, so let's pause for now, um, let me know how much time that I need to put in for Nick. I know there's an hour, but I don't know how much prep and thinking time we've done

Um, so if, just tell me, most people have said, oh, I've done an hour's prep or whatever. I'll get that, and then I'll find some more time to meet with you. Um, so what next is that we've been holding these

Um, spaces for racialized people only in the last two weeks after the riots. We, I'm going back to Nick and saying we need to do more of that, and I'm certainly taking on your feedback, um, and already was doing that, we're gonna create a, um, some space just for racialized people to come together. And I think you're right that we need to be really careful around how we call in people

So if you're OK to trust me with this process now, I will drop you an email, sort out payment and consent, and then we'll work together on how we share this story in the way that creates the change that we want to see. Yeah. OK, no that would be excellent, thank you so much

Um, have a lovely rest of your day, um, and I'll be in touch. Um, I just say I'm available up until 8 tonight. um, if outside of that time you need any support, just WhatsApp me, yeah? Yeah, cool

OK, thank you, Al. See you soon. Bye bye

Bye..

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