Report transcript in: Tu Talks about Co-Production

Please Report the Errrors?

Don't you?

Yeah,

I guess,

yeah.

Or maybe the hair,

I don't know.

Um,

so can I first of all get you to introduce yourself

and tell me a little bit about what you do?

Yeah,

um,

so I'm,

um,

yeah,

so,

as you might know,

uh,

I was part of the co-production,

um,

collective for some time.

Uh,

I also worked in education,

um,

and,

and research as a teacher and someone who,

who try to work with young people on sex education.

Yeah.

From Vietnam,

so,

OK,

brilliant.

So can I ask you,

what has your experience as a racialized person or someone from Vietnam,

um,

or,

you know,

experience of co-production been?

Yeah,

um,

so talking about um co-production specifically,

right,

I think,

um,

it is such,

um,

I think to me it's,

it's such a revealing journey to,

to like

situate my experience when it comes to discussing.

Um,

different issues like,

um,

social justice

or um like um the inclusion of,

of young people or of marginalised groups

and discussing like public health

educational um concerns in general.

Um,

yeah,

I think,

I think sometimes being part of a

kind of racialized um

group

can

kind of

I think

Give,

give me personally some opportunity to,

to look into racism as a,

a structure.

Um,

that sometimes is not like

clear or explicit,

but actually it's,

it's very embedded in

kind of a system.

For example,

when people are referring to

um a group

as,

as a collective thing,

as a homogeneous thing

rather than relating to um

Um,

people as individuals of a community.

I could see that sometimes when it comes to,

um,

the news,

the media talking about,

um,

Asians in general,

rather than,

um,

like talking about a person with a name or a certain

kind of cultural or religious or,

or class

position.

Um,

so I think,

I think there are something

quite um problematic there.

To address a group of people as,

as if they were homogeneous.

And um yeah,

that is,

that's what I I I find um

quite um.

Problematic some sometimes I really want to,

to see how people

discuss or analyse or challenge such an

assumption of,

of hidden or institutional racism.

Can I ask you about,

now,

we've met

um in co-production spaces.

How many people like you

are in those co-production spaces,

so how many people from

Vietnam,

how many people from global majorities,

like,

what's been your experience of uh co-production and I suppose,

how diverse is it?

Yeah,

I think,

I think there are not many people from Vietnam that I know are,

are conducting co-production.

Um,

I actually learned about this through the collective,

which is,

I think it,

it has a lot to do with um

institutions,

like academic institutions or

like very

well-known or powerful institutions,

um,

rather than knowing it,

um,

like from someone else on,

on the street or in my community.

Um,

so I think,

but,

but on the other hand,

there's also a diverse city of voices,

um,

from some of the discussions that I,

I've been joining,

um,

so people from perhaps from different,

um,

racial groups or from different

like occupations or with different abilities or disabilities,

um.

I think,

yeah,

in,

in terms of,

uh,

the ones who,

who,

who participate or who have their voice um

in the discussion,

um,

I think,

I think there are also a range of,

of voices,

but also,

um,

like the work of co-production specifically seem to

Um,

we rooted in certain institutions that have like,

um,

uh,

some kind of name or a kind of resources

to,

to facilitate co-production conversations.

So I think there,

there,

there might be some

like um constraints as well

in,

in how we discuss co-production or practise

co-production.

Has

racism or

challenges around race and racism

played out in any of the co-production spaces you've been involved in?

Um,

Yeah,

so I think,

I think we,

we,

we knew about the

Uh,

one incident in which,

um,

someone had,

um,

have made a command,

um,

uh,

that might be a bit,

um,

That might be critical,

but then,

uh,

someone who had a certain racial privilege might,

might respond

to,

to that critical comment with uh,

a sense of being

hurt or

uh being offended by that.

I'm,

I'm not sure.

I don't think that's the kind of um

Uh,

like,

uh,

violent or um obvious racism,

but it,

it shows,

uh,

a sense of um privilege

uh to some extent

among

people,

especially,

I think white people,

um.

And,

um,

I think it's just a,

a sense of privilege that is really worth um talking about and

if we can have um a space for people to acknowledge their privileges and also

to,

to be committed to learning,

um,

and also unlearning certain

norms,

um,

then,

yeah,

it,

there could be more productive,

um.

I think uh opportunities then to tackle racism

and to be anti-racist,

um,

but yeah,

I haven't,

other than that,

I haven't seen

um incidents of,

of,

of racism,

specifically in,

in co-production

work.

So if

we take the view that co-production is about including many different voices,

um,

and working in an equitable way.

How

much of the co-production

that you've been involved in

talks about.

Centering racism,

centering,

you know,

um,

the needs of racialized people,

so like,

you know,

you might start off with some values,

but how,

how often do you talk about like the

needs of racialized people in co-production spaces?

I think um

I think not many of them,

um.

Yeah,

I think people might have some um

some general um

commitment

to promote marginalised voices.

Um,

and I think that,

that has been um

um kind of

Um,

yeah,

played out in in many uh

projects like uh people involved like

different communities

or different,

um,

like I think racialized um groups

or different positions,

um,

yeah,

but there seems to be,

I feel like there seems to be um

Uh,

a constraint in terms of,

um,

how much we challenge,

um,

the,

the structures that make,

uh,

that create marginalised positions like that.

It's like,

uh,

for example,

we,

um,

we really value the voices of,

of racialized,

um,

people,

of,

of black people,

for example,

um.

But then

there seems to be a limited um

conversation in,

in addressing what creates such um

situations where,

where,

um,

people,

people who have darker skin colour,

have been like subjected to violence or to,

um,

certain forms of subjugation.

Um,

yeah,

I think,

I think that kind of conversation has not been,

um,

Cred much in,

in,

in co-production to,

to kind of learn together why we,

we are here

and what,

what,

what kind of historical or

uh social factors

have like been embedded in,

in our practise and how can we

kind of um be very,

um,

I think.

Honest about that

and,

and yeah,

like be,

I think first of being honest about that and also um trying to,

to,

to kind of undo that

to some extent.

How would you approach

Understanding

the historical context of racism

in co-production spaces,

like what kind of things do you think we need to do?

Mm.

Well,

that's a very,

that's a very useful question.

I haven't,

um,

I haven't had a very clear uh initiative or,

but,

but I think um

I think sometimes um in the co-production collective,

people,

oh no,

sorry,

uh people have some,

have some kind of uh creative activities

like to engage with,

with drawing or with stuff.

Um,

so I think,

yeah,

using

a kind of tool

to talk about history

can be um

inviting for people.

I think,

and also to think about um

Uh,

um,

a space,

I guess,

to,

to really central,

um,

the voices of,

of marginalised groups.

I think,

um,

they,

certain marginalised groups,

um,

have certain histories and,

and through that,

through their like personal stories,

we can learn a lot about how they view the world very differently

um from us.

Um,

for example,

someone

Um,

whom I,

I talked to recently,

um,

when,

when they knew about like,

um,

the,

the far right riots,

uh,

against Muslims,

they just felt shocked,

um,

and they could not imagine like,

um,

people could be that violent.

Um,

but then we should not just stop there,

we can also ask for the experience of

Of,

uh,

people who,

who have known that incident themselves because of their lived experience,

for example.

Um,

of course,

there has to be some kind of um

Um,

safeguarding or like being sensitive to the,

the,

the one who share

their marginalised,

um,

experience of,

of,

yeah,

how they have been

um treated with racism,

for example,

but I think their,

their personal accounts

um really matter

in kind of um

telling others,

especially people who,

who have not experienced racism um like

directly.

Um,

about

how that has,

um,

like how things

become,

became the way they are.

So I guess it's,

it's a combination of

like personal,

um,

histories as well as um

some kind of

ways to talk about the,

the,

the more

social or the bigger histories

that um have um

kind of come

even before we were born.

Yeah,

and can I ask you.

About your own experiences of co-production.

Have you ever felt like,

a lot of people have said that

being a racialized person,

that their opinions or their voice

hasn't had the same weight or privilege as white peers.

So,

what's your experience

in these spaces as someone that's doing co-production,

is from Vietnam,

um,

you know,

you,

um.

Are doing this kind of work,

so like I'm wondering like what your experience around like holding power,

sharing your experiences.

Um,

sorry,

um,

is that about like um

Sorry,

I think

the door is a bit distracting.

Can you repeat that?

Sorry,

Isaac,

I'm thinking about.

These spaces are typically made up of lots of white peers.

I'm wondering about your own experiences about being heard,

about being valued,

about bringing knowledge to these co-production spaces,

and how this is accepted by your peers.

Mhm.

I think when it comes to,

um,

racism,

specifically,

it,

it seems like,

yeah,

in co-production,

um,

the voices of racialized,

um,

people are kind of centred.

I could see that through

some of the conversations that,

that,

um,

the collective organised recently where

people try to

like talk about.

and invite,

like,

yeah,

those from the global majority to talk and to share the experience.

Um,

but in,

in different contexts,

I do feel like,

um,

yeah,

it really depends on

how,

um,

the,

the organisers,

let's say,

um.

were

themselves sensitive to

issues of racism,

um,

or the process of racialization.

Sometimes

in,

in some events that I joined,

it,

it seems,

it seems like they just want to,

to have a diversity of faces,

um,

and then,

um,

people who have different racial uh identity

will be categorised as diverse voices.

For example,

they can talk about diversity and inclusion.

But

they,

it seems like um my contributions

was just um there,

right?

I mean to talk about the

diversity

um in education rather than

being more

um deeply integrated

into

the,

I think the main content of the main structure.

So,

um,

so if,

if like,

I think if my voice is included in that way,

it is not the,

the thing that I really want.

Um,

yeah.

And rather,

I think it would be great if

there can be um a very um

a very central integration of,

I think racialized voices

into conversations.

Um.

And also there can be some

I think straightforward conversations about anti-racism,

um,

because sometimes we talk about racial bias,

um,

and,

and we,

we think like talking about

racism is already

good enough,

but then

I think to,

to,

we need to take a more

perhaps critical stance,

um,

to,

to challenge racism.

Um,

and also to,

to actively learn

how that

Uh,

I think again,

that goes back to the history thing

to,

to actively learn how,

how,

like,

um,

we,

we came to be racialized through different,

um,

personal stories or through social and economic um

situations as well.

It's really

interesting you you saying that

racialized people being invited

to hold the space of

EDI not hold of their expertise.

How,

how?

When you're in that space and that happens,

how does that impact on you?

Like what does that do to your,

yeah,

thoughts feelings and your

kind of sense of belonging.

Yeah,

I think um

Um,

Sometimes it gets,

if it gets like repeated like that,

it will

cause me a a a a bit of like.

Frustration and also self doubt,

like I might um

I am,

I'm,

I'm unsure whether I am,

uh,

for example,

eligible or capable of speaking in this forum,

um,

or it's just because of my,

my skin colour or my racial identity

that they invited me here,

um,

to,

to create a more diverse picture.

Um,

so that,

that's,

there's a sense of self-doubt

and also a sense of frustration also because of that,

um.

And I,

I really want to,

to see more or to,

to be more kind of actively engaged rather than

being kind of there as a,

a form of representation,

but on the surface level only.

Yeah.

Do you feel that you've had the same opportunities as your white peers

in relation to work

and research,

you know,

like you do lots of stuff around training,

research,

do you feel like you've had the same.

I suppose access and opportunity.

Yeah,

I think,

I think in terms of um

um like

The policies or

the,

I mean,

policy-wise,

I think,

I think

I have been treated quite the same as other peers.

Um,

but,

um,

I think there are specific um

situations,

um,

like that,

that

make me realise,

um,

I cannot have the flexibility.

Or the range of voices as,

um,

as for example,

white,

uh white peers.

Um,

for example,

because of my immigration

um status,

I cannot work as freely

as,

um,

someone who was

born there,

of course,

uh,

yeah,

if,

if they,

if they also um born there as a person of colour,

then there can be other

uh barriers as well.

Um,

but I think,

um,

yeah.

On the,

on the policy level or

um in,

in,

in everyday interactions,

people would not know that um

I can only work uh to a certain limit or I can only

do this and that.

I cannot vote,

for example,

even when I,

I saw something very unjust happening,

um.

Um,

yeah,

so.

I think they they are there also a sense of of being um.

I don't know,

like it's like um.

It,

it seems like,

it seems like I,

I am already on,

on equal levels with other peers um

uh in terms of how I,

I was treated professionally or with policies,

but also,

um,

there are certain um

Kind of

specific situations uh in,

in which because I,

I was someone from,

uh from another country and from another,

um,

uh,

like racial identity

that I was,

um,

I was not,

um,

considered,

um,

as favourably as someone else,

but that's,

that's,

I think it's very difficult to articulate,

sorry.

Um,

but it's,

it's just like,

um,

I mean there there is,

if,

if they want to design policies that

really um

Like,

care for much you know experience.

I think it will also be hard,

um.

But it's definitely important to,

to,

to not assume that,

for example,

everybody has the same

um citizenship

the same um

freedom or the same flexibility

to work or to raise their opinions on,

yeah.

Can I ask you how you would describe

your,

like how would you describe your,

uh,

would you say your,

your

uh co-producer,

researcher,

like how would you describe the kind of work you do you do?

Um,

So I think at at co-production,

specifically,

I think um

it's quite uh

Like it is,

it's quite a spontaneous thing to me.

Um,

sometimes there,

there are projects that I really like and,

and I want to join.

Um,

and most of the times,

I think,

I think I,

I have been welcome to join and to share,

uh,

views.

Um,

sometimes I could see the constraints,

like,

people might not see,

uh,

what I,

what I

say as like the

kind of um.

I mean,

the,

the

I think,

I think my,

my ideas were valued.

But,

um,

perhaps because I came from a certain context,

um,

that is not the,

the kind of

status quo or the,

the majority of people's context,

then,

um,

there can be little um value perhaps

to that other,

other people still very much um

appreciate the ideas.

Um,

but then,

it,

it just happens sometimes,

um.

But most of the times,

I think I have been welcome to

join conversations at the co-production collective and

and in my,

um,

in,

in the

university that I am doing my research,

I think people also have um

the,

the kind of same respect,

um.

Um,

yeah,

but then again,

it also feels,

um,

some feels like sometimes,

um,

people might not understand fully the,

the kind of

experience

that,

that I have,

um,

that might be very um different from what they

assume from

a teacher or a researcher.

Can I ask you how comfortable do you feel talking about racism?

Mm,

I think,

um,

it's not an easy thing.

And I,

I mostly feel like it's more easy to talk about with,

with someone who,

who I think

might have experienced the same,

like,

for example,

when it comes to conversations with you,

I might feel like I can talk about it in,

in,

in more like

theoretical

or like in,

in more,

um,

I can use more words to describe um

Uh,

what I'm,

I'm thinking

when it comes to um

perhaps a larger community then

yeah,

there might be some,

some,

I think self-censoring,

I'm not sure,

but,

but like trying to,

to make sure that I,

I can accommodate um.

The group more because I'm,

I'm not sure,

um,

where people can

come from really.

Um,

and especially if they are someone who,

who I think might have certain privilege.

I'm not,

I'm not really totally sure if they really understand or

recognise or trying to,

to actively um undo

the,

the racism um structures.

Oh yeah,

it really depends on,

on the,

the sense of,

I think,

how I perceive the connections within a conversation with people.

Really important point.

So in terms of

what

does anti-racism mean to you as a co-producer?

Yeah,

it's I think it's just.

Yeah,

it's very important um

to me,

um,

as,

as a co-producer,

I assume people might speak a lot from their live experience,

and it's important to

to kind of,

um,

to relate that personal experience with,

I think with the

bigger social structures like racism,

um,

and also to be

perhaps mindful of our position,

um.

I mean,

people might have,

um,

some people might have more privileges um than ourselves,

and some people might have less privileges.

And

when we talk about our lived experience,

we also,

we should not like um think of it as uh a kind of um ultimate

or superior thing

um in itself.

Um,

really it's important to,

to relate that experience to others and also to the,

to the broader context that we are in.

And

I think anti-racism is,

is,

um,

is an important um approach

to do that because um

if,

if we are talking about how we are

positioned um

differently

based on

injustice and based on,

um,

yeah,

privileges,

then um it's important to challenge that is what we,

we,

we need to,

to like,

yeah,

to really

be a critical.

About,

um,

that kind of structure to trying to,

to dismantle that rather than just um

um talk about those um barriers or injustices and,

and accept things as they are.

So I think anti-racism is,

is um very important as a co-producer to,

to kind of actively

um articulate and also challenge um

them.

Yeah.

And my last question,

and you might have something for me,

is what role do you see your white peers in

anti-racism work?

Yeah,

I think um

So,

so I think it's,

I think it's,

it's almost like an i ship,

um,

but we,

we can,

we can try to define i ship

uh in a bit more detail,

I guess.

Uh.

Um,

I remember one time I,

I got,

um,

a kind of,

um,

I got verbally racial,

um,

racially abused by,

by someone on the street.

And then there are some white people who,

who

intervened,

um,

to,

to challenge

the other racist person and also to offer some,

some like,

um,

emotional support to me.

um.

And I,

I think I keep remembering that

experience because that's,

that's not something that I,

I encounter,

uh,

very frequently.

And I think it's important for,

for white peers

to,

to be able

to,

yeah,

exercise their

allyship that way because that,

I think,

first of all,

they have a lot of um

They,

they,

they met,

they have certain,

sorry,

they have certain um privilege,

um,

that makes it almost

Invisible

to,

to understand the scale or the severity

of,

of racism to some extent.

Um,

and so,

so I think um with that privilege,

um,

position,

they have a lot of capacities

to,

to intervene

to um

like,

uh,

to challenge something.

They might not have the same

emotional baggage

as someone who has been racially abused.

Um,

so much that

they,

they feel very threatened or they feel um

permit to react.

Um,

um,

so yeah,

as,

as for example,

a white person,

um,

I think as long as they,

they actively intervene

and actively learn

about um

The history of things and the,

the unjust

conditions

um that create this

specific um

situation of of,

of racism.

Um,

then,

then I think that,

that's,

that's what we can,

we can find um

value there.

And,

and I think that can be a variety of ways

to do so,

but yeah,

act intervening,

challenging,

learning.

Um,

could,

could help a lot.

And,

and I think also,

um,

it's about the care

for,

for racialized,

um,

groups,

or racialized people.

Um,

like sometimes they,

because of certain experience,

they might not

speak fluently or they might um

refuse,

um.

Um,

to,

to speak about racism,

for example,

then

we should not read that as um

a kind of um

uncritical position.

Um,

yeah,

so like allow time and space to

to unfold certain trauma or certain um

I think like barriers

that a racialized um

minority person might,

might have um

gone through I think.

And do you have any final thoughts that you wanted to share with me

before we come to the end of the time that we have together?

Yeah,

I think,

I think it's,

it's,

it's very interesting to,

to,

to talk about anti-racism

and also

act with,

with anti-racist values

um at this point.

Um,

and I,

I think it's,

it's very,

um,

because,

like,

because race is a very important um

um issue right now,

but also as a categories,

so I really,

I really feel like um

We,

we would need to,

to talk about anti-racism along with

um economic injustices or gender inequalities

or like um

I mean,

LGBT plus um

um kind of injustices as well,

um,

because those

intersectionality

uh factors really overlap and I feel like,

um,

When we,

we read um a situation or when we try to,

to intervene,

um,

thinking about intersectionality that way can,

can invite a lot of people to join the anti-racist,

um,

struggles.

And I think

a lot of people already.

that I really appreciate like how

communities of like workers

or um

for example,

queer um people speak about Palestine or speak about the,

the anti-racist incident recently.

OK.

And,

and,

yeah,

I think,

um,

it's,

it's a very,

um,

helpful thing,

um,

to see,

and I,

I just like,

yeah,

I'm,

I'm continuing to learn and

continuing to,

to act on,

on that kind of intersectional,

um,

practise.

I see.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Um,

so I'm gonna,

is it OK to stop the recording there?

Just,

uh,

OK,

let me stop.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

13/01/2025